Some notes on the transcription…
I wanted to provide a transcript of The PhD Life Raft podcast episodes to make the material more accessible.
I have used an automated transcription service to produce this document. These, as we all know, are not 100% accurate. Please excuse the odd typos and grammatical mis-translations. I hope that you will find the documentation of this conversation useful.
You can find the full interview here: https://thephdliferaft.libsyn.com/
Emma
Emma, hello, Anne,
Anne
hi, Emma, hello.
Emma
Thank you so so much for being here and responding to some random woman who tracks you down. Please come and talk to us. Pleasure.
Anne
It’s a pleasure.
Emma
I am so excited to have your expertise here today, we’re going to talk about
Emma
writing, and I’m I’m really looking forward to
Anne
this me too. But
Emma
before we get going, I’m going to ask the same question as I asked everyone, in terms of, tell us a little bit about your PhD journey. Oh,
Anne
bad memories, Emma. It was a very long time ago. It was in the late 70s. It was a grim experience. It took me about eight years, so I ran out of funding after three years, and was good of working. There was very little support, almost no supervision, no progression reviews or anything like that. And I’d kind of been used to, you know, being quite top of the class. And I was just at sea, my mental health declined. It was, it was a very grim experience, to be honest. And about a week before, my vibe, my dad had a I
was very, very glad to finish it and to move on.
Emma
I am so sorry that you had that experience, and especially to hear about your dad and all that that must mean in that moment, but that sense of kind of okay, Dan, move on. I get that, and I’m sure lots of people will be able to relate to that. But I think ideally, and I know that you’re in this camp too, ideally, we don’t want people to have that experience with a PhD in terms of, oh my goodness, just get it done and then forget about it, kind of
Absolutely, absolutely. But I think that, you know, I was just on the cusp of people before me who, kind of you did a PhD in a kind of leisurely way, yes, into an academic job, yes. But by the time I came along, academic jobs were becoming scarce, quite hard to get. And I think also supervisors felt a bit threatened
coming up through the ranks, because their jobs were not as secure as they had been. So I was delighted then to discover freelance journalism and to leave academia behind and to become a freelance writer. And so I had quite a long career in journalism and screen media, writing mostly for public sector organizations. But then I was lucky enough to discover in, I think it was 2014 the royal literary fund, and I became a royal literary fund Fellow at Brunel, advising people on their academic writing. So that brought me back into academia, and now I’m part of the Royal literary fund consultant fellow community, which goes in and does workshops, mostly with post graduates, and it’s coordinated by the writer Katie grant, and we have sort of discovered great experience in, you know, working with researchers, so It’s kind of cleansed the PhD experience.
Emma
I like that. I like that. And so brilliant that we’re giving a shout out to the rLf, because the work that you do there is amazing. And I maybe some people listening will have been lucky enough to have experienced those workshops. And certainly we will put in the show notes, a link to that work, because great. It’s fabulous, really fabulous. So this is a positive this is a positive experience. Now, this is, this is you’re in in love with academic writing and sharing the love with others. So we had a chat, didn’t we, about what we, what we what we’re going to talk about, and how we were going to title it, um, and you suggested this. What no one told you,
Emma
I think is brilliant, because that, I think that’s an experience that lots of people have, is kind of come to the PhD thinking, Oh, well, you know, I can do some writing. I’ve got through an undergrad, and I’ve got through whatever, and then go, what on, what earth is going on? Exactly
what’s expected of me. What do they what do they expect? And I think it’s hard, Emma, it’s very hard. And there’s a lot of mystique surrounding academic writing, and I think people come into that experience and they blame themselves, and they go, you know, it’s, it’s just me, and perhaps, perhaps English isn’t their first language. They go, Oh, it’s because, it’s because English isn’t my first language. Or maybe they’re neurodiverse, and they go, Oh, that’s the reason I’m finding it so hard. But no, I think it is hard, and I think we don’t talk enough about the process of writing, and I think we don’t talk enough about what isn’t and I’ve had the experience. I’ve had room full of very experienced academics, and asked them, can you define academic writing? What is it, and what does good look like? And then, you know, they’ll come out with things like clear and concise and rigorous, but get beyond that, and you ask them to give you examples from their discipline disagree.
Yes,
you know, how can a researcher coming into the PhD experience within a discipline, how can we know what good looks like? Because there’s an element of subjectivity in it, what your supervisor likes or doesn’t like? So it’s very hard to know,
Emma
yes, and I think this is so brilliant to to name this, because, as you say, so many people think it’s me. It’s my problem. I can’t do this. I
Emma
And actually, as you say, there’s, there’s, there’s a whole, whole history of what this might mean, and all sorts of people’s opinions. And I think it’s just brilliant to get that out in the open and go, Okay, this isn’t as straightforward as maybe it’s being presented when it’s kind of like, you know, you must develop your writing is the feedback you get, and then you’re kind of like, Well, what exactly? And
I think the key thing Emma, that perhaps you know, isn’t clear enough to people, is that academic writing is communicating. And I think a lot of people tend to think, oh, it’s about it’s about talking posh. I’ve got to use big words and long sentences. And I’ll always use the example that people who can communicate very, very clearly verbally start saying things like in writing, a blue cure operators, instead of saying, wash your hands before eating, you know, but actually, the best kind of communication is direct communication. And people think, Well, I’m writing too simply. But no, if it’s if it’s communicating your ideas in all their complexity through short, simple sentences, then it’s good writing
Emma
this. I love this. So this sense of kind of, if it feels vague to you, the information that you’re getting, it probably because it is. It’s kind of what we what we’re saying, and what what good looks like, is not always
defined. It’s socially defined. What good looks like, I love it.
Emma
I love it. And so we, we’re all feeling this challenge.
Help, help us. Well, okay, so I think, what is it? So?
Research? It’s the language we use to communicate research. And then you say, right, well, what’s research? And research is answering a question as a persuasive argument supported by evidence. And if you think about what makes academic writing different from high quality journalism, let’s say like the economist, which I think is high quality journalism. And I think the key thing is it’s the evidence. It’s that when you make a statement, not every statement, but when you make a statement that the reader could challenge, then you have to supply the evidence, and in that way, what you’re doing is building knowledge within your discipline. You’re building on the knowledge that already exists by answering a specific question as a persuasive argument supported by evidence. But I think the sort of key thing, and I’ve got to credit a woman called Karen otter, well at Cambridge,
that really changed my thinking on this, because she was a linguistics expert, and what she said was that the other thing that people don’t realize is that academic in writing in English is very different from academic writing in other languages, and that’s partly to do with some of the characteristics of the language. And she talked about four pillars of academic writing in English. It, first of all, it comes from the ancient Greek, so it’s the art of rhetoric. And again, you know, it’s very different from academic writing in Chinese or in Portuguese. So it comes from a specific history, but I think there are two things which are most important about it. One is that it’s writer responsible, and that means that the writer is responsible for every aspect of the reader’s experience, and that’s the
a few, and that’s why sometimes, if your supervisor is giving you feedback and seeming to be a little bit irritated by your writing, and you might get comments like, can’t follow doesn’t flow, and That’s because they don’t realize it, but they have certain expectations of being carried through the writing without having to work, and that’s because it’s a writer responsible language, and it’s also linear, and it’s linear at every level. So yeah, it’s linear at the level of the sentence, because the sentence always follows a pattern, Subject, Verb, Object, and it’s linear in paragraphs, and it’s linear in the way the argument is supposed to flow. And people don’t really tell you that.
Emma
No, they don’t. And as you say that, now it’s like, yes, of course, that makes so much sense in terms of, as you say, the expectations of it and why, why
Emma
had that feedback of like, you need to sign post this more. You need to take the readers through. It’s like, but what does that mean?
Yeah. And also, why? Why? Yeah, yeah, especially if you come from a language where you’re not expected to do that,
Emma
yeah, yeah. That makes sense, and also makes sense of why. My, we’re my neurodivergent friends who don’t necessarily think in a linear way Exactly,
exactly Emma. And that’s, you know, I was just about to say that, yeah, because we all think in different ways, and some of us think holistically and not in a linear way. I’m, I’m very good at academic writing, because I think linearly. But of course, that reduces a lot of the creativity of thinking. So I work with with neurodiverse people, really, to find ways to move from that holistic thinking and that connectedness, how to move those thoughts into a linear structure, yes,
Emma
yes. And I think understanding this is brilliant, because understanding that as an act of translation, I guess, is, yeah, makes much more sense, rather than feeling like I can’t do this
absolutely and and also to value some of the techniques that you’ve developed for yourself, like writing mind maps, or doodling or drawing, and, you know, using color, using shapes, I think all of those things are very, very important. Because what’s important is the thinking, yes, at the end of the day. I mean, the writing is just the tip of an iceberg. It’s what goes on underneath it. That’s really important, absolutely. So people shouldn’t really get hung up on grammar or structure, and if they’re struggling with that, then it finding a way to sort of put their raw ideas before they’re,
Emma
as you say, that the thinking is the foundational stuff. And I think we can get, we sort of fetishize the writing. Actually, don’t mean think that’s where the work is taking
place. Yeah, fetish, I think it does get fetishized and and separated out. And, you know, also, people can challenge their supervisor and say, Can you give me an example of what you consider to be good writing, regardless of the content. Show me something that you think is good.
Emma
Yeah. Ah, this is this is brilliant. This is brilliant. Now I also know, and I want to ask you a bit about this too, because it’s, I think that the PhD is the gift that keeps on giving. So just when you think you’ve got it, just when you think like, yeah, I understand what I’m doing now, it shifts up here. And that is true, of course, of the writing too. So can you tell us a little bit about that and how that
mean the journey? Yes, yeah, moving through the journey. So year one is chaos. It’s absolute chaos. It’s it’s full of uncertainty and imposter syndrome. And again, I think people don’t reassure people in year one enough to say yes, you are in chaos, and that’s where you should be, because it’s not just normal. It’s necessary at the start of a big creative project. And you know, uncertainty, they say, is the seed bed of creativity. And I think that the longer you can sit in that uncertainty, the better shape you’ll be in in year three. But that’s hard because you are often under pressure. Write your literature review, write your progression review, and of course, you know you have to do that. But when it comes to the literature review, I prefer to say I am reviewing the literature and you will be reviewing the literature in year one for a particular purpose. It might be just to see what’s out there, to look at the debates in your discipline, but you will be reviewing the literature again in year two, year three, and the literature review you submit in your PhD will not be the one that you created in year one. So it’s not fixed. It’s dynamic, yes, I think in year two, it’s about overwhelm, that you’ve got all this material, you’ve got a much better idea of where you’re at, and now it’s time to choose, and now it’s time to limit your focus. And I think a lot of the writing then will be, you know about choosing a specific pathway and writing according to that, and that’s hard, because there’ll be lots of byways that you went down in year one and you’d quite like to explore, but you have to choose go. So I think that you know that that’s here too. I think also your relationship with your supervisor. And I know this is straying outside writing, but I don’t think it is really because No, you’re getting feedback from them. And I think as you become more confident and more knowledgeable in what you’re doing. I think your relationship with your supervisor should change. And I sort of say to people, it’s okay to brief for feedback. It’s okay to say, don’t give me, you know, I don’t this. This type of comment is not helpful at the moment. What I really need now is this, yes,
Emma
yes,
you know, I think supervisor, they want to be helpful, but, and so they comment on everything,
Emma
yes, and, and I’m sure that you’ve done this too. It’s like, as a supervisor, it’s a gift.
Emma
Please. You go brilliant, right? Yes, I’m faced with 15,000 words, actually. Now I know where to start in terms of feeding back to you. Exactly like saying rather than just trying to talk about everything. So, yeah, exactly that. Don’t be shy about asking for
showing, not, you know, perhaps not writing, perhaps, perhaps a mind map or, and this is kind of anticipating my top tips, but with, I teach a lot with Katie grant, and we do quite a lot of long a longer courses for the different year groups. And one of the things that we show people how to do is what we call the nine point structure. It’s a way of telling a story and thinking about looking the reader in the eye and saying, reader, what I really want you to know is this. And don’t ask me why it’s nine points. It’s just the sweet spot. But you can do your nine points for any section or for a chapter or for your whole project, and just show that one page to your supervisor when you’re happy with it and say, well, here’s my argument. What do you think?
Emma
Yes, yes. Yes. This is Genius, because then you could it is, this is the, this is the hub. This is my thinking. And we can, we can come to the writing up of it in a minute, exactly,
exactly that gets round that whole commenting and getting you know your, what your word fetishizing? Yeah, that gets away from the fetishized writing and just says, Here’s my raw thinking, here’s the argument, love it,
Emma
I love it. I love it. I’m aware, Anne, that we’ve attended to people in year one in chaos. People in year two, overwhelm. I know they’re going to be year three, people out there going, what about me? Where are
I? Well, I think then you’re moving. I think you need to think of yourself as moving then from from student to expert. And I think that if you’ve been struggling to find your voice, three is when your voice comes. Other scholars, work goes to the background. I think year three is about it’s about motivation, it’s about productivity, it’s about confidence. And, you know, I, I’m, I’m loathe to give general advice, because when we see year threes, we give very individualized advice, because by that stage, everybody needs something different. But I think universally, reigniting the spark of your curiosity and your interest is key, because people get very jaded. It’s a long journey. And so we do a free writing exercise where we get people to reconnect with what excited them in the first place. And I think that’s a very useful thing to don’t forget why you started this damn thing, and how, how it might change people’s
or change science. You know, have confidence that what you’re doing is going to make a difference.
Emma
Yes, this is brilliant. I came across this brilliant term the other day of bore out that actually it’s not like burnout, but actually it’s just because you’ve got to a point where you’re just you’ve been with this so long you’d like you say you can’t remember why you were ever in love with it in the first place?
So many people suffer from that, I think, you know, it’s and people have got lives, you know, yeah. And quite often, you know, I work with people who are under enormous pressure from different things that are happening their lives, and they’re still trying to finish this, you know, long project, yeah, yeah, they long ago forgot why they started or why it seemed a good idea at the time.
Emma
Yes. Oh, this is gorgeous. And thank you also for reminding us this sense of it is going to be very unique, because I think also it’s, it’s useful and kind of are also we recognize that there’s going to be people working through part time, people who are taking time out, people who is it’s just going to take them a bit longer because of their projects. So they may be in year four or five, because that’s how the project is developing. Is that kind of, broadly speaking, these these phases. And what I love about what you’ve done there is it kind of normalizes. I love the sense of like, you gotta be in chaos in year one, it’s got to be chaos. Yes,
yes. And, and, of course, COVID had an enormous effect on many people’s PhDs, yeah. And, you know, people who couldn’t access archives, people who had to change their entire project, yeah, because it was just not possible, people who were doing things that involved travel. It was very, very disruptive, yeah. And very difficult for a lot of people,
Emma
yeah. And people, you know, as you say, the kind of COVID generation are coming through now it’s, it means different kinds of work. So it means, yeah, kinds of work, yeah. And I am aware of time, and I’m also aware that you give, you gave us a sneak peek of your of some top tips there are there because I recognize this is a ridiculous question I ask for people at the end in terms of what are your top tips? It could be that you’re recapitulating something you’ve already said, or something extra that you want to share.
Don’t start a paragraph with somebody else’s idea. That’s one top tip. Try not to start with somebody else’s idea. Try to start with the point you want to make. That’s one. I think a lot of people say I can’t use my voice. You know, we’re not allowed to say I. Finding Your voice is not about using i or i think it’s about choosing. It’s about choosing who to cite, who not to cite, choosing what to say, what to leave out. I think you know don’t, don’t worry too much about finding your voice, because if you’re confident, your voice will come through. And I suppose the other thing that I would say is two things reflect on your process, because writing, it’s it’s not a talent, it’s a skill. It’s like thought you have to break down every element of it and think whether you can find a technique to do something a bit different, and reflect on your last piece of writing and think, What do I need to change? What can I try this time? What went well? How did I get that great paragraph that got no red comments from the supervisor? And I think that’s a, you know, a way of reflecting and a way of improving. That way you will keep improving in your writing. Can I say one other thing
Emma
please do? Please Sue.
Something back from your supervisor. Give yourself a bit of time to cry, because it can be very upsetting. As writers, we know all about negative feedback and how that feels. And I think it’s important for people to give space to their feelings before they start to move on and try and action the comments. And I think if you are upset by something, maybe if you can be confident enough tell your supervisor you found it upsetting and frustrating, because it’s important for them to know that.
Emma
Thank you so much for mentioning that, because it’s such a tender thing to do, isn’t it, and a vulnerable thing to do, to put yourself out there on a piece of paper for somebody else to look at and comment on. These, these, these thoughts that you’ve been having, this deep, you know, insights and desires and I Think,
and it’s taken you days or weeks,
Emma
yeah, yeah.
Emma
Now, if you’re not crying, are you even doing it? It’s my question.
And similarly, if you’re thrilled by it, give yourself space. Give yourself a good pat on the back. Yes,
Emma
it’s an emotional it is an emotional experience. And I think that what we’re absolutely not saying is that, you know, you should be upset by your supervisors comments. That isn’t, that isn’t what we’re doing. And actually, that sense of of hopefully building towards, I think, what’s underpinning what you’re saying, building towards kind of mutual respect and briefing for feedback, and then getting feedback that’s useful and supportive. That’s absolutely what we want exactly, but the the emotional element of it, that that is likely to be there,
it’s an emotional journey as well as an intellectual journey, isn’t it? Yeah,
Emma
yeah, absolutely. And almost there something else I want to get. I want to get all the wisdom before you go.
But I think that’s it from me. Thank you very much for having me. Oh,
Emma
you Emma, thank you so for sharing all of this. I get a real sense of the wisdom that you have built up over these many years that you’ve been doing this. So thank you so much, and thank you all for listening.