Some notes on the transcription…
I wanted to provide a transcript of The PhD Life Raft podcast episodes to make the material more accessible.
I have used an automated transcription service to produce this document. These, as we all know, are not 100% accurate. Please excuse the odd typos and grammatical mis-translations. I hope that you will find the documentation of this conversation useful.
You can find the full interview here: https://thephdliferaft.libsyn.com/
Music, Hello, Alex, hello. It
Emma
is so lovely to have you here. I still want you to come on this from hearing you talk so brilliantly about reasonable adjustments, and that is what we’re going to be talking about today, and you’ve got real wisdom to share. And I’m very, very grateful for you coming to talk about that. But before we do that, I’m going to do ask, as I do everybody, in terms of you telling us a little bit about your PhD journey.
Um,
Alex Chapman
I mean, mine was quite unconventional. I didn’t really do, like, a levels and, like, I didn’t go straight into a bachelor’s. Um, so I’m
Alex Chapman
a musician, I trade. I do a lot of composing before, well, I did. Used to do a lot of performing back in the day, and I’m now on a PhD in music psychology. I left school at 16, and I went to college. Which school wasn’t anything I came away with, like two GCSEs, I think I probably got back excluded about three times. It wasn’t, it wasn’t
a great time, right?
Alex Chapman
And due to family circumstances, I went and moved from southern England to Aberdeen, wow. And I worked a bit of music. I had a few college courses up there, and then I took a gap year, and I did a bit of bit of work. I then moved into undergraduate. I i
Alex Chapman
undergraduate in 2018, at least Conservatoire, and I did composition of community music as my as my specialism in sub specialism, COVID, hit, enjoy us. And this was when I realized I wanted to do like, more psychologically based stuff. And a lot of the stuff had gone online, and it didn’t really fit with the like, neurodivergent paradigm. I then went on to a Master’s at the Royal Northern College of Music to do a joint masters in composition of music psychology, and I specialized in neurodivergent listening experiences in live music settings. And this course opened up a lot of opportunities for me, such as internal funding for a report on accessible venue technology becoming a part of the new northern music psychology group, and it got me more well known for accessibility and inclusion within and outside of the institution. My PhD journey started on the way back from one of these new northern music psychology groups with my what, who is now, and was my primary supervisor for my masters and PhD. And we were on a train back from York, I think it was, and we would seem like a load of like PhD presentations during the day, and one of them was Melissa Kirby’s PhD with purple patch art, which was a collaborative doctoral award. And my supervisor basically said to me, why didn’t you try applying for this? If you’ve got a an industry partner in mind, why don’t you give a give it a go. So I took it upon myself to contact the industry partner. And I think I told the supervisor, I think mid June which and it was like three months from when I initially contacted them. Yeah, I basically, we we’ve got all the funding stuff together. It’s supposed to be the industry partner and the supervisor, but I took it to myself to add myself in and kind of like do all the management side of it. And in November, we got the confirmation that I got the funding. It was a miracle, because I really didn’t think it would happen. And it was like the studies within the internal review panel got concluded as quite large, which they are scared, very scared of that. But yeah, it was hopefully a lot smoother. The only thing I’m really dealing with now is trying to cope with the change, because I had the gap year, right? So between my masters and my PhD and so, yeah,
Emma
well, what? What What a journey. And I want to give a shout out. I always love to hear about really supportive supervisors. So shout out there to your supervisor. And also, I love the fact that it’s a, you know, things, things, conversations, things happen that kind of bring you into this work. And I love that, that this was a conversation on the train that then led, led to where you are now. And this, this sense of you taking on the management for that, which I think kind of being really proactive around it, and not being afraid to be proactive around it, I think is amazing, as long as hopefully you’re not drowning in Adam in at the moment, I just hope that’s not happening for you.
Alex Chapman
I mean, it always happens,
but I think that sense of
Emma
need on your own project is That’s amazing. And you mentioned your work is around neurodiversity, and, yeah, you are neurodivergent, and that’s what, that’s what we want to get into today in terms of coming into that study as a neurodivergent scholar, and I heard you speaking. We had a neurodivergent scholars meeting. We’ve just been having these kind of ad hoc meetings, which have been gorgeous. Well I certainly that I’ve really enjoyed them, but you were speaking so eloquently around this, this, this, particularly around the issue of of reasonable adjustments, which has come up as a concern for lots of people. And I was like, Please, will you come and talk to everyone around this? Because people, people need to know. And you very graciously said, yes. So that’s what we want to get into in terms of reasonable adjustments. What does it mean and, and how, what, what? How do people apply for them? So compound question there. Start off with, What? What? Yeah, what’s, what sort of things are we talking about when we’re talking about reasonable adjustments? As a neurodivergent scholar,
Alex Chapman
I mean, it took me a while to figure out what I actually needed, right? But in terms of the I mean, I hate the fact it’s based on the medical model, it’s grim and just sorry,
Emma
I just sorry, I just going to pick up, in case people haven’t heard of the medical model. Could you just say a little bit of what that, what that means for people? And so the
Alex Chapman
medical model is, like, the need for a diagnosis and how it like, how it functions. So like, for ADHD, like the medication is the bust, for instance, which doesn’t always work as we’ve figured out.
Emma
There we go, yes, let’s note that everybody
Alex Chapman
but there’s the use of like social model side of things, and mixing the metal medical and the social model in this scenario is probably the best bet. So I know, like some universities, for instance, deal with medical models saying, right, you have this condition, this is what you need. Whereas some others like mine say, Okay, you have this condition. What can we do to help? And then you have to pick everything out yourself, and it takes a lot of trial and error, yeah, like a hell of a lot of trial and error,
Emma
yeah. And so I think that this is really important to kind of to notice, and potentially, you know, to be aware of if you’re going to ask for reasonable adjustments, to be aware that there may be a particular way in which your institution approaches it. And as you say, this biomedical model that goes, here’s a standard template which we have of what this might mean. There you go. That’s for you. If they do do that, you don’t as you’ve noticed you don’t that, you can recognize where that’s coming from. You don’t necessarily have to work with that. You might suggest that there might be amendments to that from where you’re coming but then the social model, the sense of you know how you are impacted because of the way in which you’re treated by a society and this particular institution that opens up opens up discussions, but that those discussions may may demand a lot of you in terms of asking you what you need, and as you say, you might not even know what you need. So that that has its own challenges in that
Alex Chapman
absolutely I when I came to undergrad, they were like, What do you need? And I was like,
I don’t know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alex Chapman
The only thing that I’ve had on my previous one was the fact that I talked really like, bluntly and like people. People sometimes took it as like me being rude, right, right, right, right. So, yeah, that’s still on,
Emma
yes, yes, yes, yes. And that can be really important, I think, especially in a in a situation, you know, if you’re in seminars, and if you’re in, you know if you’re in, you know you might be in journal clubs as a PhD researcher, or you might be in sharing your research material with other doctoral researchers and asking questions of them, and the way that you share that maybe may have a different style to other people.
Alex Chapman
Yeah, I mean, for instance, like, so I get reasonable adjustments from my institution, and I get DSA right,
Alex Chapman
Disabled Students Allowance, yeah, just, but it goes through the so, like, you can get it through Student Finance. I think you can get it through like funding bodies, like research councils and like National Institute of Health Research, I’m trying to think of any other major funding bodies that deal with it. There’s probably quite a lot more under my research. Oops.
Emma
Well, people, people, it’s always where people, while we’re touching on that, it’s always with people checking whether they may be eligible for definitely, say and your your things are called different things at different institutions, but your Disabled Students Office, if that whatever it gets called in your institution,
Alex Chapman
yeah, right, where we have a health and wellbeing hub, yeah, there you
Emma
go. They will be able to give you advice on that of whether you are eligible, and maybe even help you apply.
Alex Chapman
Yeah. So like, for instance, like, I’ve kind of gone into autistic shutdown at this point through the amount of change. So they’re getting me some mentoring
right through DSA, right?
Alex Chapman
So that’s like, part of it, and that’s only just like, coming in, coming in now, but there’s other stuff. So like, if you have like, a physical disability, you can ask for, like, an ergonomic workstation in your like, Research Room, there’s like, you can state like, when you’re feeling anxious, this will happen, and this might indicate this. Yeah, I can’t speak for other people,
Emma
but the brilliant news about DSA, the Disabled Students Allowance, is there’s money, right? And money that can, as you say, that can help you to, you know, to access mentorship or to access particular computer programs. So there are things you when you say
Emma
that that’s that’s, that’s how that can work. There’s also
Alex Chapman
stuff like, what if you’re, like, if you can’t take public transport on a bad day, they can fund you taxis? Yeah, yeah. There’s, like, it’s, it’s not a never ending list. But yeah, yeah. There are things that are to help, like, even just to get you into the institution, like on the ground,
Emma
yes. And so the and again, it may well depend on you to say, and these are the things that I need, and it’s okay to say all the things that you need, you don’t have to be talked about recently exactly say what you need, because, as you said, Alex, that they may well be able to fund that for you. And you know, I think sometimes it’s useful, isn’t it, to talk with people who know you well as well as to talk with people who don’t know you well, so the people who know you well may be able to go, oh, you might need some help with that. You might you know, you know that you that you really value that, whereas other people, people who don’t know you well, might ask really naive in the best way, questions in terms of taking you fresh and kind of going, Okay, well, What? What? What might you what might you need? So I think that that’s a journey in itself, as you say, but there are adjustments that don’t need any money, and that that are reliant on the institution to attend to how you’re functioning as a as a postgraduate researcher.
Alex Chapman
So like, for instance, like our NCM, give me extended library loans, in case I like just completely forget out of my life. I can get help in retrieving books from shelves in the library. I can have an audio device in class as Yeah, I have an ergonomic workstation. So I have, like, a chair, like, there’s literally a sign that wellbeing have put in, like, you are not allowed to use or adjust this chair. This is for one person only. I think, yeah. And then, like, there’s stuff, like peeps as well, for the emergency fire excerpts and stuff like that. And I think you
Emma
also said something about having longer supervision sessions that that’s, yeah, I
Alex Chapman
get 25% extra time with my primary supervisor, which
Emma
is golden, I imagine.
Alex Chapman
I mean, I would, I would assume, so I actually know how I’m using it yet?
Emma
Yeah, I suppose some people might not want extra time with their supervisors, but I think it sounds like you have a really good relationship with your supervisor and be able to take time to explore. Because I think especially for all our neurodivergent friends, sometimes it takes you time to warm up into a conversation, sometimes it takes you time to think about what you actually want to say. And from the you know, something that gets said at the beginning of a conversation, it then bubbles up, and you go, Oh, actually, I want to talk about this now. And so having that extra time, I imagine, would be really quite useful. And and as you say, you’re going to experiment with that and see if that really is useful.
Alex Chapman
I mean, I get, in comparison to, like my friends, like some of the other unis, I get quite a lot more supervision time than them, anyway, right, right, right. And so, like, typically, minus the 25% I get 20 hours with my primary, 10 hours with my secondary. And I’ve got 20 hours across the project with my industry supervisor, but that’s to do with the funding. That’s not, that’s not the institution.
Emma
So this, so this sense of having things that aren’t going to cost the institution.
Speaker 1
I and, well,
Emma
I suppose, I suppose it in another way it does with a supervision, for example, because workload and all of that. So I suppose it does. You know that does in a way, but extending library loans doesn’t necessarily, unless I suppose, I suppose, long term, it could be buying its library books and things, but I think that this is potentially the asking for adjustments that’s really going to improve your scholarly life, those pressure points. And I know that you said that you had spent a lot of time thinking about and that it’s a kind of, it’s a work in progress in terms of what is really going to help you on that, on that journey. And so I think a lot of people know about, you know, reasonable adjustments in terms of vivos, and you know that you can ask for an agenda for your viva, so things don’t take the bike, ask for rest breaks, and all of those kinds of things, but actually reasonable adjustments along the journey. I think people may not have heard of
Alex Chapman
I mean, there’s, there’s other stuff, like leaving the room when you need to, yeah, like, that’s, that’s on my Learning Plan at the minute. Yeah, so, like, it’s not just applicable to the even if you say, like, I want this for my viva, like, you can have that throughout the whole of your time there.
Emma
I love this. I love this. And I think what it, what it makes me think of is, you know, I talk a lot about going, you know, the PhD is a personal development program. You’ll get to know yourself really well. This is a whole another angle on that, getting to know yourself well in terms of, like, Oh, what do I need then? Because, of course, a lot of our neurodivergent friends are just running to keep up, yeah, and, and just doing their best to fit in and keep up, and actually, to kind of go actually, to ask for what’s truly going to support me in this research work, and then I have to think about what’s truly going to support me in my research work. I wonder if there’s been any any surprises for you in terms of your reflections on on that, and what has really helped, what’s really made a difference?
Alex Chapman
Um, I mean, I didn’t think I’d say this, but the ergonomic workstations made a difference. Really. Really means that I’ve got one space that I’m coming into, let’s say nine to five, Monday to Friday, right? And I’m just, I’m just chugging along and, like, like, even having, for instance, like scheduling, or schedule everything in but in bunches of an hour and a half, because my brain won’t take longer than that on a standard, typical day.
Emma
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think this is, this is brilliant information to have. All PhDs need to do this for themselves in terms of kind of going, how do I work best, and what do I need? But as I say, this is sort of next level on that. But it can be so powerful when you’ve got it, like you say, actually now you’ve got your space, you can come in, you can, you know that it’s there, you know your seat is there. You know you’ve got your little your slot, and you can get on and do what you what you want to do with that anxiety of, how is it going to be? Where am I going to be? What’s going to happen? Yeah, yeah. I
Alex Chapman
mean, everyone else spot desks in there, right in these rooms, but yeah, they put, they put me right at the back. So, like, no, like, if they come, then it is my death, and it’s my chair like but height adjustable desk. I have an ergonomic chair that I use brilliant
Emma
because, because I think hot desking can be incredibly stressful for Neuro divergent scholars in terms of, like, you know, to other people around you, and all that noise and sensory stimulation and then, and literally not knowing where you’re going to be when you go in, you can’t prepare your heart for it. If you don’t know where you’re going to be and what, what is going to be like, or if they’re going to be somewhere there, then people might avoid actually going in. So this is gorgeous, and I know that you there was also you very kindly in the in the session, shared this kind of the template of what you,
Alex Chapman
what was there, what they that’s just what they use like for everyone. It’s just a systematic thing,
Emma
yeah, which I think is great, because I think not all institutions will have that and that it, I think it’s just reminding people that it’s okay to ask for these things and also share information, because your institution might not have this, but other institutions have. And so you might show your institution and say, Look, this other institution has got it. And then quite often, institutions go, Oh, brilliant. There’s a template. Fabulous. I could we can use that with permission, obviously, with permission from other institutions,
Alex Chapman
there’s like issues around, like, I mean, I feel quite lucky, maybe institutions quite small. I mean, it’s, it feels like that. There’s, what, about 1000 of us, minus the junior department,
right, right, um,
Alex Chapman
and, yeah, it’s, it’s relatively small in comparison to other places, right, right. So it feels like there’s a bit more of an impact, yes, yes,
Emma
and that they’re attending to you. And it’s just so brilliant that I think to kind of recognize the brilliant practice here, so I’m aware of time it goes so quickly. I did just want to say we wanted to kind of there was so much more that we could say about reasonable adjustments. But I suppose the kind of headline is you can get them, and that is okay, and please do ask for them. Please do ask for them. So that’s my I want you to kind of have the last word here in terms of, well, I usually ask people for a top tip, which is a ridiculous question, obviously, but if, if you were kind of a message for people to take away, if they are particularly struggling around, you know, reasonable adjustments, or being a neurodivergent scholar, what would be your top tip?
Alex Chapman
Okay, I’m gonna summarize it in two words, but I’m gonna explain my myself, okay throughout that I’m gonna go with Be patient. One, with the institution, because they, I mean, I felt lucky, but I know some who have actually had to fight for this. Yeah. And two, with yourself, because it is a matter of trial and error.
Emma
That’s gorgeous, that is gorgeous. And I think that sense of being patient with yourself and gentle with yourself, isn’t it, that sense of it’s a journey of discovery,
and if something
Alex Chapman
doesn’t work, don’t worry. Just go back and say it’s not working. What’s next? Like, even if you don’t know what you actually need, you can find it. It just might take a while. Oh, I
Emma
love this. I love this. And I know that in that meeting, you gave us examples of of that journey that you’ve been on and kind of gone. Oh, try this out. No, that doesn’t work, and that is okay as well. It isn’t, as you say, it’s not a it’s not a one hit one day that you can kind of go back and renegotiate. Yeah.
Alex Chapman
I mean, my Learning Plan makes me look like a complete dysfunctional human but if it helps, it helps.
Emma
This is the thing, and I think it is kind of
we, we that
Emma
sense of really attending to what really helps you, what really helps you, and what you’re highlighting, that sense of vulnerability in that there is vulnerability in that, oh, 100% and that’s Why you want to kind of make sure that you’re working with people who understand that ideally and are sensitive and thoughtful about that and knit because but knowing that that vulnerability will lead to you being able to truly fly and do what you know you can do and so it won’t become those, those daily struggles, hopefully will become less.
Alex Chapman
Like getting in for me is is easy now, right? It feels easy like I’m still, I’m still juggling a few things, right? But with grandma doing my 35 hours a week. Love
that. Love
Emma
that. So much. That’s a good place to stop with it. Um, Alex, thank you so much. Really, really appreciate that, because we talked about vulnerability, and I’m talking about your story with this, because this is, this is so important for people to know about, but also doesn’t get talked about a lot, and I understand why. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you all the best. Wishing you all the best for the next bit of your journey. Keep us posted. We will do Thank you. Thank you, and thank you all for listening. You