Some notes on the transcription…

I wanted to provide a transcript of The PhD Life Raft podcast episodes to make the material more accessible.

I have used an automated transcription service to produce this document. These, as we all know, are not 100% accurate. Please excuse the odd typos and grammatical mis-translations. I hope that you will find the documentation of this conversation useful.    

You can find the full interview here: https://thephdliferaft.libsyn.com/

Emma  

All right. Let’s go. Hello, Gina.

Unknown Speaker  

Hi, Emma.

Emma  

It I am, I am well, it is lovely to meet you. And we were just saying it’s working in this space and been, you know, just caring about students and wanting to get the best experience for PhD researchers. So I feel like I’ve met a kindred spirits. This is good. So we today we’re going to be talking about managing your supervisor, which is a challenge for lots of PhD researchers. But before we get into that, I am going to just invite you as I do for everybody, just to introduce yourself and to say a bit about your own PhD journey.

Gina  

Thanks. Oh, yeah. So I, I, well, I completed my my second PhD. Let’s start with that. I started my first PhD immediately after my undergraduate degree and 18 months in decided this was absolutely not for me. Not working. I was supervised between two universities, one in the UK, one in Europe. And it was a fabulous, fabulous experience, deeply intellectual, very challenging, and oh, my life way too hard for me. So I, after a faculty restructure, I pulled out I went off into industry for a number of years, and then accidentally ended up back at the university teaching. About four or five years after that, it became abundantly clear that in order to stay in the teaching space that I wanted to be in, I needed to do a PhD and that was not my own intention. It was not something that I particularly wanted to do. So I slightly grudgingly on on a program which I was doing part time alongside being a senior lecturer in my department, I ended up as head of department again grudgingly because other people and whilst I was doing my part time PhD as head of department in the UK, my dad who’s in Australia got sick. And I ended up going backwards and forwards between Australia and the UK to be with him. And have various other things going on. I finally finished nine years later. Not without some serious stress on the way Yes,

Emma  

nine years, every single life

Gina  

event I Yeah, life life is much harder when you’re doing a Doctorate of some sort. And I think I went through every single event on that list that like the Samaritans puts out of the big the big life events, I think I did all of them at least once. Divorce, job changes, house moves, major operations, you name it, I’ve been through all of it. It was a long trip. And it was a tricky trip. It’s a very, very rewarding trip once I got the hang of it, but I I’m not a natural academic. And I really struggled with big chunks of it. And a big part of that, which is why I’m talking to you today was the relationship with my supervisory team, which was a little bit bumpy at times. And that really didn’t help the situation. I’m sure I was part of the problem. And I like to think now that I’m a little bit wiser about how it should have gone and certainly I try and make sure that my own students don’t have the same issues. From from finishing my PhD I went back into the job that I was doing previously and really have been sort of doing teaching since I finished in 2016 graduated a year today after my Viva so folks this doesn’t happen quickly. And when I graduated I did so with the five record baby on my arm so it was very much a busy time. And yeah, that’s kind of how I I got to do what I’m doing which I’m sure is the next question you’re gonna ask me. So I I was very fortunate that I got into supervising firstly master students as we do as we go through and then into being involved with the doctoral programs in my faculty. And I just found that I found my sweet spot, you know, that was like that doing the doctoral thing. Doctoral programs for students who didn’t doctorates, it was just kind of, I really enjoy it. I enjoy being involved in that with the students I enjoy watching them grow, watching the studies develop and being able to support people in a way that I wasn’t supported. I mean, it’s never easy and life does life but at least it’s it’s nice to help people We’ll grow through this study, rather than fight through it, which is too often?

Emma  

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes to that because it is it’s so heartbreaking to see people fighting with themselves fighting with the topic fighting with the institution that is kind of actually, you would hope that people would come out of a doctoral experience with at least some moments of kind of, Wow, that there was some golden stuff in there. We’ve got got a hope for that. But I’m Blimey, what a journey, what a journey you went on.

Speaker 1  

It was big. Oh, yeah, you know, there was some great stuff there. And I, I was really fortunate that I was able to do my, my study on an organization that I’ve been involved with, since I was seven years old. So I knew people and I was able to really be an insider researcher, which, you know, has its own methodological issues, but was great fun, and I got so many really good stories, I’m kind of tearing up even thinking about it now, because it’s so nice to talk to people and, and be able to make a real contribution to the organization, and also to the wider sector through that work. Which I, you know, I never thought I’d be able to do, I never thought I’d be able to do that. But I’ve changed the practice in that sector through my work, even though I haven’t published widely with it, just because of the kind of involvement that I had in the sector. And so it’s been really good to do that. And a lot of fun, even though that was rubbish times. So

Emma  

I need to know now what what the subject was, I looked

Speaker 1  

at long term sport volunteers. And the, the impact of values on their commitment to the organization. So it’s very soft. And it was, it was sort of, we had a framework roughly around why volunteers commit and why they stay committed, but nobody had really looked at the impact of values before. The organization I work with is very much a values driven organization within disability support. And so it’s, you know, I had, I just had some fascinating conversations with people. And that’s really what stuck out for me about the whole, the whole path of the nine years was conversations I had on the way through. And the way that people were prepared to open up to me, I think, particularly as an insider, but to really explore ideas and concepts with me in a way that they hadn’t done before. So a lot of my participants that kind of thought about that for I never thought about like that. But that’s, yeah, that’s really interesting what you’re saying, and I can see how that would change what we had done. You know, and I wasn’t there to change their thinking in an interview, but at the same time, it changed the organization just through having those conversations. Oh, How

Emma  

gorgeous is that? And what a testament to how important PhD work can be,

Speaker 1  

is really is so important. And we lose sight, I think, stuck in the weeds of it. You know, I just hate every bit of it. And it’s just going horribly wrong. And this is what I see a lot of the time when I talk to people that, you know, it’s just, it’s just bad. It’s all bad. It’s horrid. And but I don’t think it actually all is, I think we just need to be careful to find the good bits as well. And when you look back on it at the end of it, because you will get through it. It’s nice to be able to pinpoint those those real highlights. It has taken me a while before I can talk about it without too much rancor, I will admit.

Emma  

Well, let’s let’s let’s get into the Rancor, then let’s do that. Let’s dive into that because that’s what’s here. So this sense of I think what came through really clearly when you were just talking about that, that sense of the kind of the human connection in the human element connection conversations, that being at heart of lots of PhDs. And some of the big conversations that you’re having, obviously, with your supervisor and your supervisory team. And that’s where some of the rancor can come from. Right. So, talk talk to me about this talk to me about where you’re at with in terms of managing your supervisor coming out of your own experience, but also from the PhD but also your own experience now further down the road.

Speaker 1  

I think there’s a few things. I mean, again, going back to my experience very quickly, I chase my own supervisor around the conference circuit before they agreed to supervise me. So I identified a subject specialism and and went after that, possibly if I knew then what I know now I might have done differently. But that was I was determined I was going to have that supervisor and I think for a lot of us, you know, we have to pick up on something that is relative have taught you want to study. And so it’s quite tempting to go after the supervisor. But I think, you know, for a lot of universities, now, you’ll go into a program and you’ll be given a supervisor. So you don’t get a choice. You have to just work with who you’re given. But even if you do choose, you don’t know what they’re going to be like to work with when you get two or three years, and they’re normally academics in field, and they are technically there to support the progress. But we also have to understand that understanding the role of the supervisor is really important, and they are not there to hold the students hand, this is my understanding. Now, again, I wish I’d known this at the time that the majority of students are there, the supervisors are there to to ensure that you stay on track. In most university supervisors get about an hour a month per student, which is not a great deal. When you think about the the reading the feedback, the meetings, the discussion, the mining of the theory, the developing concepts that we all want supervisors to do. And yet there isn’t that much time to do it, nevermind the admin that goes with it. And so really, where I come from with this is that if we understand the role of the supervisor, it’s easier to work with them. Yes.

Emma  

And it can be I mean, it can be very revealing, if you’ve, if you look at your own institutions. What’s the word kind of guiding principles for supervisors, a lot of them, as you said, is admin driven a lot of the roles and the key things that university is interested in the supervisors doing administrative tasks, so it is worth just remembering that that that that’s what the university is looking for from your supervisor? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1  

It’s my experience of supervising nurse anything to go by those, those admin tasks or anything but transparent as well. So yeah, I’ve lost count of the number of hours I’ve spent trying to find the right place to put an intention to submit for

Emma  

maybe just telling me, somebody tell me what to do. Right.

Speaker 1  

So you know, I think I think supervisors are under pressure, when it’s an hour a month, you’ve got, what, 300 hours in the month, they’re doing other things. And so you’re not the priority, as hard as that is to hear and as hard as it is to swallow. And I think the onus needs to be on the student to drive the process, and to really understand what they’re doing and to own and step up into owning that, that study and saying, This is what I need to do. This is my intention, and you’ll come along with me. And you will support me in this then without being really dogmatic and aggressive about it. But being very clear that I’m not any longer in the junior role in when we think about the history of doctorates, a doctorate is an apprenticeship. And if you’ve followed me for any period of time, you’ll you’ll see I’ve talked about this a lot. A doctorate is an apprenticeship to be able to step into the world of higher education. In a back in the Middle Ages of 1617 centuries, people would literally sit at the feet of their professors for years, until they understood what they were doing and how they were doing it how to conduct research study. And then they were admitted to the academy, they became the doctor. We’re not quite there anymore, but the role of the student is to learn, but to learn as a professional in the field. So if you want a decent relationship with your supervisor, you’ve got to prepare to only study to say this is what I’m doing to be in control of what you’re giving them to give them enough time to read things for. It’s like I get ahead of myself, but I think, you know, understanding the way that relationship needs to work, which is that you meet them as an equal. And you watch them pretty much as an equal is really important. You know, I walk down the corridor now in the university, and I will chat to people who are not necessarily in my field. And it’s almost the same relationship where I’m like, Well, how does that work? Well, how in your field, how does this framework apply to this area? Because I understand like this object you understand differently. That’s virtually the conversation you have with a supervisor. Yes, yes. It’s almost a peer to peer suit. Conversation. Yes, and cool.

Emma  

But I’m just gonna say and that can be really thrilling. But also very confusing, because I think when you when you step in, is that sense of looking for the teacher?

Speaker 1  

Yes. And we all feel that we don’t know anything about a subject we go in thinking we do know about it. And then we get a few months in and we’re like, oh my goodness, actually I have no idea what I’m doing here. Yeah, no, because I get stuck into the so many bits of literature. And there’s there’s so many different methodological approaches, and how am I supposed to, to make decisions about this? And how do I know which way to go? How do I know which bits to discuss? I got so many things when they get further down the road that I want to talk about, and I can’t talk about all of it. So how do I decide, and your supervisor can give you ideas, they can say, I think this bit needs to say, and this bit needs to come out. But if you’re attached to this bit, and they want to take out, you got a big discussion to have that. But at the end of the day, it’s your work. And certainly in the UK, and Europe, it’s not your supervisor who puts the stamp on your doctorate. So they are not marking it. And I think that’s a really important thing to bear in mind as well. Yes,

Emma  

yes. Because I think people can get into really wanting to please their supervisor. And

Speaker 1  

so they have no impact on the outcome. And no,

Emma  

and then you can end up with with a thesis that you didn’t really want to do, because you did it because it’s your supervisor, and it wasn’t really what helped her that was going to be because so I think, exactly as you say, the sense of them as a kind of as a as a an advisor, as someone who is an expert advisor on your work, but it’s not there to market. And it’s not there to run it. Yeah,

Speaker 1  

absolutely. And that’s, you know, there are so many things that university doesn’t teach you, you might have early classes on on critical reviews on methodology on putting a research project together on even understanding the whole of the research thing. But they won’t teach you how to manage a big project, they won’t teach you how to make sure things are on time, they won’t teach you how to communicate in an in a professional academic way. On the whole, I’ve yet to come across University, it does do all of those things. And those are big learning curves, you know, and your supervisor can help you with those as well. But they, they’re not there to teach you these things, they’re there to ensure to an extent that what you write is of a sufficient quality, not that it’s got the right answers in it. That’s your responsibility to students. And so, you know, managing your supervisor, which is what we’re here to talk about is really about understanding that that relationship is a peer to peer relationship. And your role within it is to act as a professional.

Emma  

So talk to us a bit about that, then, in terms of as you say, this is a massive learning curve in terms of stepping in as a as a academic professional, and how, how to go about that? What are your thoughts?

Speaker 1  

So the first stage and that is to be to be clear that you’re there to learn. But also to be clear that you you’re there, because you have a right to be there. You weren’t accepted onto this program. By accident, you weren’t accepted, because the university needed the money. You weren’t accepted just to make up the numbers. And because they needed another bum on the seat in the room, you were accepted onto this program, because you have an interesting idea, you are judged to have the potential to be worthy of a place in the academy. And you are there. Because they want you to be there. And that might not feel about some of the time. But that’s the reality of it.

Emma  

Absolutely. So many people say, you know, I’m not sure you know, and I think that they just they’ve just, you know, we’re just being nice. I was like no, there is in the in the contemporary University is no place to be nice. Exactly. She said, people are there, you’re there, because you deserve to be there and really, really, really take that on really take that have to

Speaker 1  

own that because that is key to having that persona, which is I have a right to be here. And I have the ability to be here. I may not know everything. I mean, who does? Who does. I remember my one of my lectures when I was an undergraduate used to say to new classes, right? What’s the difference between me and you? You know, you know more than we do and and you’ve been around a lot longer and he’d say no, actually the main differences I’ve got I know how to ask better questions than you now. And that’s when you get to this level of studying for a doctorate. You know how to ask better questions. The role of the next few years is to learn how to ask even better questions. Yes,

Emma  

yeah. And

Speaker 1  

so becoming that academic professional is about asking the good question. And you’ll have the best conversations with your supervisors if you go in with good questions to ask them. Yes.

Emma  

And I think not being afraid, she say with those questions not being Try to put your questions front and center to set the agenda rather than to wait for the questions to come at you.

Speaker 1  

Yes, yeah. And I think you know, you’re not there to be tested, you’re there to learn, and you’re there to develop what you are doing. And the best conversations I have with my students are when they are prepared for meetings, and they have come. And they have, you know, there may not have written anything, but they’ve written they’ve got an interesting idea, beginning stages. So they kind of say, well, I’d like to look at this, but I could also look at this, and these are my reasons for doing these things. And you can have that real, you in depth conversation with them, and allow them to explore, you know, seeing people grow is why most people do this

Emma  

thing. Yes. And I think it is also worth knowing that people fight over PhD students, right? They want to work with PhD students, because it’s exciting and interesting. And the sense of kind of being at the cutting edge of research, this is great. So in the sense of you, if you open up your research and invite your supervisor to kind of develop that with you, that is a joy for them. So you don’t feel like you’re kind of putting something on them. You’re giving them a gift, right? Yes. And

Speaker 1  

I think, you know, the, the enthusiasm, and the new energy that people bring in when they’re engaged in original study, is something that does refresh the jaded palate of the admin heavy academic, you go, there you go. And, and so, you know, you as the doctoral student, are the one who is bringing that light into the light or should be. And, and so it’s, you know, again, step into the value that you bring to that process.

Emma  

If you’re you may be the highlight of their week. Remember that? I

Speaker 1  

know for me, personally, it certainly is, when I, you know, I look at my directory. Oh, I got seven, seven this week. That’s great. I’m really cool to know how they’re getting on. You know. And I think for most people, if the conversations are interesting, they want to have them. Where it becomes difficult is where the student is not prepared to take that responsibility for the study. Yes. And so maybe early on in my PhD, when I sat there, and I didn’t believe I had the right to be in the room. I didn’t believe I knew what I was doing. And I got pushed and pulled all over the place by different Supers. I had, like five second supervisors in the first three years it was it was a revolving door on me. And everyone came in with their own ideas. Why don’t you do this? Why don’t you do that? Why I think you should look at this, I think you should do that. Yes, it was only three years. I mean, I was part time, three years in, where I just threw my toys out the pram in a meeting. Literally, I just said, I am not doing this anymore. This is what I want to look at. This is what I’m going to do. This is my framework. I don’t understand how it’s going to work yet. But this is what I’m going to do. And my supervisors, both of them sat back in the chairs and said, well, thank goodness for that.

Emma  

No, I love that. Yeah, I

Speaker 1  

thought I was gonna be fired as a student, I’m sure. Yes, that was the point at which it started to become possible for me to do this study. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, you know, I, as a supervisor, I tend to push my students very hard early on to get them to that point a bit earlier than I got that, right. So they do they have something they own? And they can sort of say, right, this is what I’m doing. And that makes it much easier. And then hopefully you avoid the am I doing the right thing? Have I got the right framework much closer to submission, which is always a little bit worse?

Emma  

Yes. And it’s so exhausting. Just second guessing yourself all the time. Absolutely. Brilliant, right. So we’ve got so we’ve got, we’ve got a more because I’m aware of time, and I want to make sure that we get all the good stuff from you. So this got this sense of working as a PA with your supervisor, and anything else that you would suggest it hasn’t been to go. And we’ve had this thing of setting agendas, and the sense of kind of taking ownership being in control.

Speaker 1  

But I think I think the other thing I really want people to to understand is that the relationship with your supervisors will change at different stages. Yes, yes. And so, at the beginning, it’s very much exploratory, you’re getting to know each other, you can do a little dance around each other and, and being very polite. Yes. And then when you get into the meat of the thing, where you’re you’re starting to work on your methods, you’re starting to think about how you collect the data, what you’re going to be doing, and really what frameworks you’re using and what theories you want to develop.

Unknown Speaker  

You get a lot of them robust, which, which is putting it quite politely I think this is

Speaker 1  

your meetings. And but that robustness of the relationship only lasts for a period of time, what really whilst you’re developing frameworks and concepts, and then you go into a much more, you should go into much more counseling conservative phase towards the end where you’re writing up. And there will be in stages where, where some people said, supervisors will send it back to you and say, basically, this is rubbish Rewriter. But hopefully, a decent relationship with a supervisor, it comes back with constructive comments, and you can work on those. But by that point, you are definitely stepping into those shoes. This is mine, I own it, and I am able to defend it. So I think that understanding the changing nature of the relationship, and the changing push pull within it is important to making it work.

Emma  

Yes, yes. And I think it is, absolutely, that in terms of it will be an evolving organic relationship in a very different way to when you have your undergraduate teacher and you see them in that kind of mode, and they continue in that mode, really, actually, the sense of, of somebody who is in that project with you, and evolving as the project evolves, and what what you need them for in that project is going to change. So that is really golden to remember, and to do remember that the PhD is in phases isn’t a thing. It’s phases of the thing. Brilliant.

Speaker 1  

I think so. And I think also that it, it depends, I probably it depends a little bit on what field you’re in. I mean, I maintain the process that you go through. And then the outcome, the output is almost exactly the same, regardless of whether you’re doing hard science, or you do most often slightly stuff like I did. The topic areas are different, the frameworks are different. Of course, they are the way you think about things are different. But that process is pretty much the same. And so the relationship will go through those patterns, those those phases, those patterns of, of push and pull, regardless of what you’re doing. And also regardless of how long it takes, I think as well.

Emma  

Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. There’s a kind of arc to that to the work. This is great. This is great. And I think that I think also just knowing just naming the fact that this can be tricky. This can be really tricky element. So if you’re finding that difficult, know that you’re not on your own with that you’re not on your own. But that kind of keeping communication open, I think is really important. Really important.

Speaker 1  

I think trying to I get contacted by a lot of people who have feel that they’ve been ghosted by supervisors, right. And, you know, and that can happen, it can happen both ways. I think, where, particularly where people are not, no, I’m not going to lay the blame with anybody. And I don’t intend this to sound like I’m trying to lay the blame with anybody. But I think particularly where people are not clear about what they’re trying to achieve with a study, it becomes much more difficult to stay engaged with it as a supervisor. Because you feel like you’re following the student around the whole field of possibility. And that doesn’t make for a good relationship.

Emma  

Actually, when it supervisors want to be briefed, right, don’t they? This is this, do you think

Speaker 1  

you’d want to know what you’re getting ahold of? And I think, you know, we’re certainly again, well, I’ve worked with people who have gone a little bit around houses, and you know, maybe for four or five years in, and still haven’t nailed down what they’re trying to achieve, or it’s changed again, or it’s changed again, or it’s changed against, just decide on something and move forward. You can’t write this thing unless you are focused on something. You know, at the end of the day, what you’re doing is starting broad and going to a point where you finish the thing where, you know, a very, very great deal about virtually nothing. Yes, it’s subtle, isn’t it? And it’s a very narrow funnel at the bottom. Yes, you walk into that vital room and you know, almost everything there is to know about pretty much nothing. Yes, something that is so small, it could dance on the head of a pin. And you’re not going to get that point unless you cut out some options. And at some point, say, you know, just like choosing this new city, I don’t like that style. That’s I’m not looking at anything that’s that style. Yeah, it has to be this color, therefore, it’s not available in this color. I’m wearing and look at it. It doesn’t matter how pretty it is. Yeah, it doesn’t matter how interesting is, at some point, you’ve got to like, put the blinkers on. So, you know, for the next three years of my life, I am going to focus on this thing here. Yeah. And when you do that, it makes it much easier for your supervisor to stick with you.

Emma  

It will you get you’ll get your best value for money that way, won’t you? Because you’ll be able to say, I want you to help me attend to this. And then they can really apply themselves to that. And ideally,

Speaker 1  

a lot of the conversations are not necessarily about the topic itself, are they? They’re about how do I do this? How do I go about this process? How do I write this better? How do I how do I focus on this without going down this rabbit hole that is not quite relevant to what I’m doing. And those are conversations that supervisors will willingly have. But there has to be a focus for them as this whole thing about, you know, being the professional in the room, but owning what you’re doing about making those decisions, as you know, is really important. Yeah. And then you get to the actual, you know, if somebody is just being difficult. I’m loath to speak ill of my colleagues. But there are people that are more difficult than others, we know this. And you know, and sometimes you need to understand within the university, what your areas of recourse are, who you Who else you can talk to how you can get help to mend the relationship has gone wrong. And those resources are available in the university and our point the number of people every month to a director of research, who within the faculty who can help to mend or fix relationships or deal with relationships that have gone slightly askew. And, and that’s an important thing to again, it’s about being that professional emotionally distancing yourself enough, from the relationships that you can say, this isn’t exactly where it should be. I want it to look more like this. This is how I’m going to take it forward and try to mend this. Yeah, yeah.

Emma  

And you know, and ultimately, sadly, sometimes things just don’t work out and, you know, as you experienced, then then you need to change, you need to change it up. And that, that sometimes can happen too. I think sometimes people feel I don’t want to cause trouble, you know, it’s your project is your PhD, and you want to make sure that you are able to complete it with this, you know, that might mean making hard decisions along the way as well.

Speaker 1  

Absolutely. And I’ve just I’ve just looked down at my desk now and I’ve got a a piece of paper in front of me which came out of my diary of all things. And it says your life will be no better than the plans you make and the action you take. Architects a builder of your own life, fortune and destiny. How from Alfred A Montpetit I’ll send that to you. I love

Emma  

me I love your diary That’s deep.

Speaker 1  

Things fall out my my wife and I come from you know, but I think I think you are the architectures that would read your own life and your own doctrine and, and you can take that responsibility and say I’m not working with somebody like this. I wouldn’t work with somebody like this in a regular office. Not with somebody like this now.

Emma  

Yeah. Yeah. And,

Speaker 1  

and that actually, for most supervisors is the kind of, I guess for that moment. Where people do step up and start to take responsibility for what they’re doing.

Emma  

Here, here here to that right, I am I am aware now that we need to kind of come into to a closer and I’m gonna ask you the very unfair question of out of all that was here. Is there a top tip that you would leave people with?

Speaker 1  

I got Can I share three really quick, right? This one is step up, be the professional in the room, prepare for everything, set agendas, keep timings on track for meetings, be prepared for meetings, this is number two. So if you’re going to supervisory meeting, or you’re going to have contact with supervisors, be prepared, make sure that if you want them to look at something you share it in plenty of time and you’re clear what you want feedback on do not just send somebody 10,000 words and say what do you think? What your feedback aren’t you want it on the section you want in the flow Do you and on the literature do you want the methodology looking at tell them what you need so they can be effective with it too and with their time and and finally, accept that everybody is an individual. And especially when you are in academia, you will find the odd bots and the warehouse we are all slightly odd. We are all completely unmanageable. What am I Dean’s once said that managing academics was like trying to herd cats and the obvious answer is well why would you ever try and do that you know As big we are all a bit odd if we fitted into boxes we’d be out there in corporate earning a lot more money. Except people generally people are good hearted. Generally they want to see you succeed, but sometimes they just need a little bit of help to get you there. So they bring the value and work out how you can best help them as well as them helping you I think that’s probably my top top tip.

Emma  

I love it. Yes, welcome to the world of eccentrics that’s what it is. And on that note Gina thank you so much I know you do a lot of fantastic work with people and we will have all your your amazing direct quotes but also your all your contact details in his in the show notes of people, I’m sure will want to follow up on find you. Thank you so much for being here today. For all your wisdom.

Speaker 1  

I’ve really enjoyed being here ever. Thank you. It’s great to meet you and and to chat to you about this. Obviously it’s something I’m pretty passionate about. And yeah, there’s a lot of room for improvement. There’s a lot of good practice out there as well. So I think yeah, just don’t lose hope because this this lot was working to make things easier for people and better.

Emma  

Lovely, thank you and thank you all for listening.