Some notes on the transcription…
I wanted to provide a transcript of The PhD Life Raft podcast episodes to make the material more accessible.
I have used an automated transcription service to produce this document. These, as we all know, are not 100% accurate. Please excuse the odd typos and grammatical mis-translations. I hope that you will find the documentation of this conversation useful.
You can find the full interview here: https://thephdliferaft.libsyn.com/
Kay (AUS)
And then,
Emma
hello, Okay,
Kay (AUS)
hi, Emma, how are you?
Emma
I am good. We were just saying, How amazing is technology that there you are in Australia, and here I am in the UK, and we can chat for as long as we like. How nice is that?
Kay (AUS)
I know it’s incredible.
Emma
I am so grateful to have you here and for you to be sharing the story that you’ve got today, because it is a it’s a big one. And we’re going to be talking HD, talking about kind of that, those kind of, well, when big stuff happens, really, I suppose, is what we what we’re going to address, as it often does, as you say on the PhD, life can happen in, really, in kind of Technicolor in terms of, and I think because that moment of a PhD, you are so open to the world as well, I think that it can be incredibly intense, but we will get to that in a minute. Indeed. Thank you for this. And I just want to do as I invite everybody to do at the beginning. So just tell us a little bit, just to kind of a taster of your PhD journey, how you got into that, how it was for you.
Kay (AUS)
Wow. Five Minute. Elevator Pitch. Yeah. Go on. It’s been a while, Emma. I do recall the elevator pitch to the supervisors, and it was nerve wracking and exciting and terrifying at the same time. So I graduated from the School of Law and Justice at Australia’s Southern Cross University, and my thesis, I got into it. Surprisingly, I was working in the Middle East in an embassy in Saudi Arabia. I just completed my master’s degree in human rights. I was patting myself on the back and bouncing around the hallway going, yay. I finished a significant body of research. Austrade commissioner came up and said, Well, that’s marvelous. Kay, about time you did a PhD, and I’m like, Oh my gosh. I was so gobsmacked. And and so he sowed the seed that that eventually turned into something quite fruitful, very exciting times and and so when I returned to Australia, I did embark on a PhD, and I did successfully complete it, and quite proud of that. And it was a culmination of 25 years of aid work and security work in some of the world’s most hostile countries, where I wanted to explore the the research and provide a significant original contribution to knowledge by examining the Australian humanitarian sector And and looking at offering recommendations for its professionalization. So it was quite a quite an interesting beginning, middle and end,
Emma
yes, yes, yes. And you said you’re proud of that, and you should be incredibly proud of that, because of the work that that represents. And as you say, the the inputs that represent into that particular sector. And I also think that importance of sowing a seed, because for lots of people, that is part of the story, in terms of somebody says something, you didn’t even think about it, but someone says something, and you’re like, okay, yeah, that and that can come to fruition later on.
Kay (AUS)
Oh, absolutely, Emma. And on the the planting, the seed is actually planting the the idea that you do have capacity, because why else would they suggest? It exactly
Emma
that. And it’s such a gift, isn’t it? I remember one of my undergraduate tutors saying to me, you know, you could think about doing an MA, and it never, ever occurred to me. And I was like, maybe I could. So I think this thing about encouragement and recognition is so important, so important. And how amazing, and how pleased Are we all that that person said, that’s you
Kay (AUS)
at the time, I wasn’t very appreciative when I embarked on the journey. And then I grew to hate the word journey. And every time I met a fellow candidate, and then the lunchroom in the university, and they said, How’s the journey going? Throwing my teacup in the air and screaming and running out the door. I’m sick of the journey. It’s so intense.
Emma
I’m so with you on that. Can we all stop having journeys, please? Because it is. It’s like, can I just sit down for a minute? And that would be quite nice, but, but it’s, well, actually, I would say you had a bit of a wild ride rather than a journey. So So tell us about that. Tell us about your your world ride.
Kay (AUS)
Oh my gosh. I started my journey in the School of Humanities and Social Sciences, naturally, because all my friends were there, and I thought that would be a really good place to be and undertake my research. So after writing my research proposal, which was in and of itself akin to a PhD,
Emma
if they’re not easy, not easy,
Kay (AUS)
they are not and no one tells you the intensity of just preparing your research proposal. Yeah, I dove into my confirmation of candidature. Quite a mouthful. I’m glad we use the acronym COC, and I did that at the 12 month mark and not entirely confident in any of my ideas, least of all the theoretical framework. And I discovered during my oral presentation that it clearly wasn’t the right research project for me, I was quite astounded that I’d even got to that position, that when I went to do the hard sell to the to the Dean of the School of Humanities and Social Science, it just happened To be the an executive director of a nonprofit, one of the big ones. She looked at me and said, I think you need to rethink this. It’s a bit like war and peace. So I had, I had embarked on this journey thinking that a bit like Joan of Arc, I’m going to solve the world’s problems with this thesis and do something incredibly amazing, and I’d actually bitten off too much that I could chew, and the in academic terms, As we know that the scope was too broad, and so I had to then go back to the drawing board and think about, what is it that I really, really, really want to contribute, because my enthusiasm will not get me over the line as I thought it was. And some might be listening and think, Well, how did you get to that position? Because Didn’t your supervisor tell you that you were, you know, your ideas were a bit grandiose and ambitious, but I think, I think we, we just thought that anything was possible and and to really embrace this challenge, I went back to the drawing board. I was I was thinking, look, I don’t think this is right for me. I might just go back to work. And so then I said, No, let’s go back to the drawing board. And then at that stage, the dean of the university’s law school, he approached my prince, my my supervisor, my secondary supervisor under that group. He said, Hey, can you get Kay to come over to the law school? Because I think she’s onto something here, but she just needs to tweak it. And that’s that then started almost a riot. Two schools going, No, I want her here and I wanted her there. So it was very interesting. And in the end, because I reshaped the thesis, it did fit better in law because of the international humanitarian law and human rights law that underpinned this new thesis that I’d come up with, I discovered that I need to narrow, to funnel the research down into a manageable package to look at the Australian humanitarian sector, and build into that research, not, you know, go from out in going out, it had to come right back down and scale the whole project down. And that’s how I ended up in the School of Law and Justice. Had to jump through a few extra hoops there to meet certain criteria, to do some additional units of study. I’d already, you know, done study in law and human rights, but also had to bring in the justice side, so a few hurdles to overcome and and to engage with new supervisors, who were absolutely incredible thinkers, really critical thinkers. So I found my place there, and so began journey part two, like like Emma, like The Return of the Jedi,
Emma
I like, but that’s what this that’s what this episode has to be called, The Return of the Jedi. But I think this story is because you ended up changing topic, faculty, supervisor, like, massive switch, oh, in the gym. And I think, I think because you are the gorgeous person that you are, I think that there’s a good bit of underplaying going on in here in terms of how big that was for you, because it’s massive. It’s massive. But what I what I think is so important about this story for other people, is that is that moment when you’re presenting and you’re going in for, as you say, the hard sell, I love that. It’s like, Please, let me carry on, actually, that it is really, really common that people start with too broad a PhD topic. That’s really common and, and it’s like, you’re a dreamer, you’re an innovator, you’re a, you know, you’re an ambitious thinker, and so that is why that happens, and that isn’t a problem. And so many people get to that your institution runs it, and you review, you know, confirmation, all of those cause different things, but at that point they become really, really smart, and they think, Oh, I’ve got it wrong. I don’t know what I’m doing, and that isn’t true, and it’s so important to hold on to that. And I think your story says that really clearly, because wasn’t that you got it wrong, wasn’t that you couldn’t do it, what you needed was to be in the right place with the right supervision. Focus down your topic. Absolutely. Focus that down. But you that was almost certainly going to happen, right? Because that’s what, that’s what. So I think this is just a brilliant story to remind people of that I don’t know if anything else is as I’m saying, that I don’t know if anything else is coming up for you there.
Kay (AUS)
Well, it’s that, that sense of, I failed, yes,
Emma
yes, yes, yes. And,
Kay (AUS)
and, you know, the the the panel made it very clear that I hadn’t failed, yes, you know, I still held on to my candidature. I just had to go and rethink it, reshape it. I hadn’t failed. And this, again, is part of the journey. You know, and into the into the first stages this, this is a really good lesson to say, hey, you know, you’re embarking on becoming a scholar. Yeah, yeah. And in the days of old in England, you know, they used to march the kings and queens in and then who followed the scholars. So it I was really reminded of the importance and the the prestige of the PhD. It is not a journey for everybody, no, but I wanted to be in that whatever percent it is, the 4% that complete, you know, so they say, down here in Australia. And I went outside, I cried in my girlfriend’s arms. She she was about, she was her honors degree, and she was horrified, but I said, Oh, I’ll go and have a think after I have a cup of tea, and off we go again. And that’s when things changed and switched schools, switched ideas, you know, and discovered that that wasn’t the PhD journey that I wanted to go on. I had something in my mind more important to do. So it was a really good leveler and a good lesson. I love it.
Emma
I love the magic of a cup of tea, because we can’t underestimate that ever. But I also this sense of that moment. This, this A whatever it’s called, and it gets called different things in different institutions, but it feels like it’s an exam, and it feels like it’s a pass, fail exam, and it that isn’t at all what it is. What it is is that moment where it’s kind of like, is this a viable project? And if it isn’t a viable project, it will just mean that we need to change it up a bit. And the panel, ultimately, although you may not feel like that, what they want to do is make sure that this is possible for you, and so they will be giving you advice to move you forward with that. And what I love is that you you had someone to give you a cuddle, cup of tea, because I think it’s it can be a crushing moment. Oh, indeed,
Kay (AUS)
but indeed and, and actually the Dean of the School of Humanities, which I was, you know, originally pitching to she met with me afterwards, and we did have a cup of tea together a couple of days later, and she said, Look, I just don’t want you to be discouraged that things didn’t go the way You thought they’d go, it was all singing, dancing, oh, I’m doing a PhD, yeah, you know. And then you come down to reality, and you have to be able to constructive criticism, because it is there to make sure that when you jump with your feet into this journey, that you do it with your eyes open, and you develop a thick skin, because you are going to have so many moments of doubting yourself and and what you’re doing, and people are going to say, Oh, you didn’t write this well enough, and that you’ve got To be tough to get through this journey. And you are, but, you know, it’s all got to start somewhere, hasn’t it? And once you’re off the blocks and the guns gone well off to you, you know, pick your pick your chin up and just keep going, yeah,
Emma
yeah. Well, I think that sense of finding the support that is is right for you, like you like you say, going to that different department where you felt like, actually, yeah, this is, this is where I can do my best work, and not being afraid to do that. But as you say, also recognizing that that may not always be framed in the most careful, gentle way. Let’s be honest, that and you know, and there’s work to be done there, we recognize that, but recognizing that this is what, what they will want to do is to make sure that this is a completable project. And it’s quite likely that you’re going to be over ambitious. That’s that’s very likely, and I think also absolutely, also it’s likely to be that you’ve flown through what’s come before. And actually, there hasn’t been a lot of time when there has been deep critique of the work. And so that, again, can be really flooring in terms of, like, you say, I failed. I’ve done it wrong. I’ve failed. That isn’t what is going on, that isn’t what is going on, and it’s kind of really holding your nerve, listening to the advice and and then deciding what feels, what feels right, where, where you should take that next. Um, wow, wow. It is.
Kay (AUS)
It is very, very different to the master’s degree, yes, and to other, you know, avenues of study. And I think that’s really misunderstood, is that we read about, you know, what the PhD journey is, but until you’re actually, you know, in that realm, and standing before the panel, I think reality hits and it’s like, oh my goodness. Well, I don’t know the very
Emma
good explaining that to people. So you get told you need to do a presentation, and you get told that you’re going to be giving the account of your work. So you’re like, okay, alright, this is like, you know, this is like, my undergraduate seminars. I’m going to do my homework, I’m going to put it all together, and I’m going to show them what I’ve done, and they’re going to go, hooray, yeah, actually, actually, if, if we explained, and it’s like, it’s not an exam, you’re not going to get a grade on it. What, what? What we want to do is hear what’s come up in your research. We want to see if this is viable. You are very likely to get some strong feedback, which will help you shape the project for the next step. And I mean, if we explain that, more people maybe would be less thrown by that experience. It explains what, what it what was going on. But I think, as I say, what I think is brilliant about your story is what happened there could have gone either way. As you say, you could have gone. Do you know what? I’m just going to go back to work. That’s it. I’m not. I’m not. I’m not doing this. But actually, that big change all of that, and that’s going to be more unusual. Actually, most people would just be tweaking up the project. But actually, to change,
Kay (AUS)
oh my goodness, change all
Emma
of that, and it does have a happy ending. Your story too, right?
Kay (AUS)
Oh, incredible ending. You know, I’ve been to graduate as the last PhD graduate of the School of Law and Justice for that university. Because that was monumental for me too. I had I walked across the stage as the last student for Law and Justice and before they transitioned into the Faculty of Business, law and art. So I felt a lot of pride in that and my supervisors as well. You know, because everything was changing and covid had struck, and and universities all over the world were changing, and faculties and schools, they were all merging, and there was a real loss of identity. And so the journey was disrupted and changed by not only my change of thesis, my research and change of schools, but also by covid and global pant pandemic, and also the changes that that brought to the universities here in Australia and abroad. So getting supervisors, Emma, you know, a supervisor from international supervisor, who was expert in my subject, and also one from Australia, you know, I mean, that was a bit difficult because of the the pandemic. So there were a lot of there was a lot of uncertainty that it was like you’ve got your roadmap, but then everybody starts changing the road and adding new things that it’s like, where am I going? Half the time, I didn’t know where I was going. You just got to trust that. Okay, this, this is okay with these changes and these challenges, you know, just keep moving forward. So it was intense.
Emma
I love that metaphor. You’ve got a map, but they keep changing the road. People will be able to relate to that.
Kay (AUS)
Oh, put a few roundabouts in that map. She just gets stuck on.
Emma
Kate, you are so awesome. You are an amazing woman with an amazing there’s a whole other elements to K story, which and we will put links in the show notes, because you could find out more about just how amazing she is. Um, before I let you go, I’m going to ask the ridiculous question that I’ll ask everyone in terms of a top tip, what would you like to leave with everyone as a top tip?
Kay (AUS)
Oh gosh, top tip. Well, just don’t get distracted by the distractions. There’s just going to be so many things coming at you that you know you might be, you know, reaching for the Panadol one day for the massive headache you have, or the mouthwash for the mouth ulcers you might develop, or, you know, a bit of binge eating. But look at the end of the day, Emma, it it’s all worth it, all the all the pain, the sweat, the blood, the tears, it’s all worth it. Because you, when you stand on that stage and you get to tip your hat to all the people that are in the audience and your supervisors, the the distractions that were put in your way, the signpost blocking you, the going from this way and that, it just all amounts to a massive high, like one that you’ll never experience again. It’s just an amazing journey. And so I hated the word journey to begin with, but I finished on a high. And so it was a great journey. I really appreciate it. It taught me to critically, think and analyze, and that is a skill that you really use beyond the PhD,
Emma
love it. I love it, love it, love it. Oh, thank you so much. We’re going to bottle that energy,
Kay (AUS)
hold on to the absolute pleasure, Emma. And can I just can I just say thank you indeed for the work that you’re doing globally. I was so excited about your podcast. I wish I had have had that as a resource when I was going on the journey, but I think it’ll be so helpful, and it has been so helpful to so many people all throughout the world. You really have shone a big spotlight for them, or one of those, one of those beacons, the lighthouse, I’ll call you the lighthouse keeper Emma, shining the way for everybody to see. So well done to you. Oh, gosh, you’re so lovely.
Emma
Thank you so much. Well, I really hope so like, like I said, this was what I would have liked for myself too. There was a lot of sobbing on my PhD, and I wish that there’d been some kind of connection with other people. So I do hope that it is helping people out there. We care about you. And, yeah, keep going.
Kay (AUS)
No definitely is Kate. Thank
Emma
you so much. Take care, and thank you and thank you all for listening.