Some notes on the transcription…
I wanted to provide a transcript of The PhD Life Raft podcast episodes to make the material more accessible.
I have used an automated transcription service to produce this document. These, as we all know, are not 100% accurate. Please excuse the odd typos and grammatical mis-translations. I hope that you will find the documentation of this conversation useful.
You can find the full interview here: https://thephdliferaft.libsyn.com/
Emma
Hello, Cynthia,
Cynthia
hello, Emma.
Emma
So lovely to have you here. Thank you very much. So I found you online. I stalked you online, and that you were doing work, encouraging and supporting other people, applying for PhD programs. And so that is what we’re going to talk about today. Very generously said yes to come in to talk about this. But before we get into that, I’m going to ask the question that I ask everybody in terms of telling us a little bit about your PhD journey so far. Indeed. So tell us about your journey.
Cynthia
Yeah. So, so I’m basically my second year. I’m actually doing my my PhD in the UK at the University of Greenwich, and I’m going through my second year. So I technically have a four year PhD. So I have three years of funding for my PhD, so English course, I can get it done in three years. But yeah, how did I get into my PhD? So I was actually working as a research manager in local hospice here in England, and I I was facing a lot of obstacles in my job. And one thing that was also feeling a lot was lonely. I was looking for mentorship. He was kind of guide me. So I decided to sort of like, you know, start looking for PhD programs that aligned with what I was interested in. In terms of research, I found this PhD, which was all about looking into feedback practices and barriers that people from ethnic grounds are facing to get feedback as academics to help them like basically progress more and basically plug up the leaky pipeline of academia, especially for minoritized individuals. So yeah, so I’m in, I just finished my first year. I mean, my second year I received ethics studies. Super exciting. Yes, yes, I’m basically in data collection. I’m literally right now trying to recruit other people who are also in their doctoral study and who are from ethnic, minoritized backgrounds, and are willing to basically talk about what their experience with, you know, feedback from their supervisor is like, and what you know, what’s been helpful and useful for them and things around that. So that’s basically, I’m literally, like, you know me do in my PhD right now. It’s exciting, it’s terrifying. It’s all the emotions right now,
Emma
and so, So potentially, I suppose, if people are listening and they they would like to make contact with you about that. We will have your details in the show notes after and I’m also sure that many people will be feeling your pain in terms of that recruitment process and data collection. Oh, blimey, yes, but, but you’ve got ethics. Let’s not, let’s not lose the positive you got that that’s, that’s a real achievement. Um, yes, certainly amazing. So, so you are living this story right now. I am, but what you’re particularly what what you said you would talk about, not what you said you were talking about what I was, what I wanted you to be able to share with other people, because I think it’s really valuable. Is about applying for PhD programs. And we’ve never done an episode on this before, people who are who are on it, but actually, this sense of how do you even get there? Is a really, is a really important question. So can you tell us a little bit about the the work that you have been doing and that that process for you?
Cynthia
Yeah, so I love to help other professionals, mature students, particularly health professionals and people who have been away from university for extended periods, but they’re looking to kind of establish themselves as experts in their industry, in their fields, in health or wherever it may be, and would like to get their PhD and are like, you know, struggling with that inertia of, how do I get my PhD application together. How do I apply? Or I want any full funding? Because, you know, I can’t, I don’t really want to sacrifice my left arm, my left leg and my kidney as well, right? So, how do I go about all of that? So my work comes from find the key things that will internally, the things internally that they need to, sort of like, you know, put together to apply, if it’s confidence, if it’s, you know, the sort of like right materials, writing their story in their personal statement, research proposal, finding a supervisors, anything and everything stupid, like putting together that, you know, that seller, PhD application as well, as, like, funding as well. So I work around all of that. And the key sort of goal is to come out with a fully funded, you know, PhD, you know, admissions. So, yeah, that’s in a nutshell what I do. Okay,
Emma
so you’re working to magic. Um, so you said that really interestingly about the internal work. Can you say a little bit more about that in terms of building confidence and what and what that might mean? Yeah,
Cynthia
I think they’re like different parts of sort of like done by him, is like a good friend of mine who is who’s working at a director level at, you know, not for profit organization. And I went to school with her. She’s brilliant. She is an analytical thinker, and because of how her masters went a few years ago, she’s really hesitant about getting her PhD. But one thing, because she’s also giving research in her job, she knows the value of getting her PhD, but she’s also wanting to, like, go to a top school. Like, her dream is to maybe go into Oxford and get with funding. And there’s a lot of procrastination going on, like, mentally, like, Oh, can I get into such a top school? Do I have the time? And I think one of the key things that, you know, she just goes to me, was, like, the fear that what happened in her masters will happen again. So she was supposed to finish in like a year, but she had to be extended to two years. So a lot of like fears from what she’s done,
Cynthia
in terms of, like, the future, like, fear failure, fear of not being able to achieve what she wants to do. So with someone like that, like, I work with, sort of, like, understanding what’s in, what’s causing the procrastination. Like, okay, you’re afraid that you might not actually finish, or take you longer, or you won’t have the capacity, because you’re so busy now, and when you were in school, you were not as busy as you have now. You don’t have a toddler running after you, know, your feet, or, like other family members, demanding your attention, and a job that has all these things, like we sort of like break work on all those internal things as well, besides just actually putting, instead of the actual application together, like, what? What is causing you to procrastinate taking this next step? Right? What is causing you to maybe you actually have decided, like, why are you not working on your research proposal? Okay, you know the research topic you want to do, why are you reaching out supervisors, right? So it’s that it’s everything and anything around that it’s more about like making sure the internal work is done as well.
Emma
I love that. It makes sense. And I think what’s really interesting is that kind of this, this, this journey goes on throughout the PhD, doesn’t it, in terms of, like, I know I need to do, but why am I not doing it? Because I don’t think any, any any, I don’t think anyone who needs any help to find out what they need to do. But it’s often that that kind of, that internal struggle as you, as you say, and I think also this, this the other, the other part, in terms of, like, your friend story in terms of, but there’s something in her that’s calling her in and that’s so gorgeous, isn’t it, that people get called into the PhD. And I think there’s, there’s magic in that. So there might be that internal struggle between the I really want this. Well, I’m not sure you know the So, yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense in terms of attending to that and continuing to attend to that, I guess. But then, as you say, there are kind of logistical things, and I also recognize that it’s the work that you’re doing too is attending to the fact that maybe it’s not quite a not quite a level playing field for everybody coming into this. So is that on? Sorry, you go You go ahead.
Cynthia
Oh yes. So I was gonna say that we don’t all have access to the same information of how to sort of, like get that fully funded PhD, like I was listening to one of your previous podcasts, and people have acknowledged that sometimes they don’t actually know that you can get, like, a fully funded PhD, which you know, for me, that was something that I got as part of my master’s training. Even before that, I knew that from my bachelor’s and some of the things I do as an undergraduate student, I knew that it was a possibility I was given that information so I could actually, like have that work towards that goal and and be strategic about it. But lots of people don’t have the information, and if they do have the information, people sometimes have a lot of, like, mental talk, telling themselves that maybe I am not going to get that top scholarship, or I’m not going to get into that top program with some funding or some sort of way to kind of cover the cost. So, like, I’ve been very fortunate to be surrounded by people who’ve helped me get the not only confidence, but the actual information, like, for example, knowing you know what to actually apply for, how to apply for it, seeing previous applicants, what they’ve done as well, and also knowing the strategies of how to get feedback on what you’re doing. Because as a researcher, as a PhD student, and and being immersed in, you know, academia, feedback is, like, a huge part of, like, your growth and how you develop. And if you don’t get that feedback, it can be particularly daunting to, you know, share something and not know if it’s good enough. If that makes sense, like, am I, if it’s if it’s going to be, you know, competitive. But the thing that you know I was able to kind of gain from my background, my education and even now, is how to access feedback. But this is feedback is also building your confidence as well. So it’s helping you recognize what you’re doing well, what you’re not doing well, and how to make sure that you keep repeating what you are doing well I’m building on that so I’m good at certain types of things. And rather than trying to, you know, like, I’m not, the best analogy is like, you’re good at, like, I have really bad hand eye coordination. Like, no matter how many times you hit a tennis ball at me, I can never hit it. Like, I just can’t, if you, if you kick, you know, a football at me, oh, I’m gonna hit that. I might not hit it properly, but I can hit it. So for me, it’s like, what’s the point of trying to hit a tennis ball? But rather, at least I can hit the, you know, football, so I can actually work to develop that skill better. I feel like academia is like that as well. This is the essence of feedback is to help you recognize what your strengths are, what you’re good at, and how to, kind of, like, you know, build on that further, so that you are the best researcher in your sector. So for example, I’m I love qualitative research. I do qualitative research, quantitative research. I can kind of get back right. I can do the basics, but what’s the point of me, like, kind of racking my head and just trying to do this thing when I’m already so good at this, but I can develop my skill further? Obviously, these are like, quite general and broad examples, but how this kind of comes back to applying for PhDs that so many people will think of topics, and they’ll take think of questions. It actually doesn’t even align with their background, it doesn’t align with their interest, or it’s sometimes just slightly off. And you know, it’s not even believable that with your background and with your interest, you’re going to do a PhD in this. Does that make sense? Emma, it makes
Emma
absolute sense. And I think it speaks to this sense of, okay, so I’m going to be an academic, and this is what academics say. And these are sort of things that academics are interested in and and actually that does two things. First of all, it doesn’t value like you, say, your own life experiences and the things that you that truly, that heartfelt calling that we were just talking about, that’s like, I really want to go into this. So this really is me. This really is what I’m doing. And also it just it then also just kind of perpetuates what academics look like. Let’s, let’s open it up. And I think this, this whole thing that you were saying about the kind of the mystique of it, that it’s, it’s that kind of smoke and mirrors thing, that kind of, the that you there should be an, you know, you should have an understanding of how you do these things. Well, how are you going to find that out? Unless you talk to people, and how are you going to find those people if you’re not already in that network? So I think that sense of, as you say, really acknowledging what you are really passionate about, I think that’s really powerful, and then also knowing that it’s okay to ask people for information.
Cynthia
Yeah, I think one of the key things that’s beautiful about academia and something that you learn as a strong applicant is how to harness the you parts like this is the Me, me, myself versus others. What’s their input spray? So for me, I know what I need to do. I need to do? I need to be able to tell my story in a way that people can connect to it. I need to make sure that things make sense. The other part is like, what’s what? How can I get sure that I’m finding the right supervisors? One thing I always tell it, you know, everyone who I talk to, I reach out to, is your supervisor is the most important relationship. Something I learned. I was so grateful for this. I I learned this in my masters, and I kind of knew this before going to my masters. But like for a lot of people, the supervisory relationship is as serious as you know, if you were going to date someone or marry someone, you would put a lot of thought into this person, your supervisor, on average, you’re going to spend at least four years working closely with this individual. Why not put that much thought and that much insight? Don’t just go and say, Okay, this person’s willing to take me. You should also reflect on are you willing to take this person right? Are you willing to deal with their quirks? Are you willing to you know this? They have a particular teaching style. They have a particular style of giving feedback. They have a particular work they also have a track record of this with other students they’ve worked with. That should be something that you’re considering, because lots of people like, I believe, like, we know that lots of PhD students end up having mental health issues. So if you are trying to protect your mental health and your overall health and well being, it’s this relationship has a huge impact on that. So why not like put some thought into looking and vetting and finding not just someone who hits the research sort of interest, but also on a relational basis, is someone that you can work with, and also has created an environment because other students within, depending on the type of research you’re doing, if you’re lab based research or group that works closely together, other people within that environment also have an impact on your well being, right? They can either help you find the right resources, the right papers you should be reading, the right training, you should be finding that, or just overall, you Know, morale boosting,
Cynthia
huge impact in that. So I know, personally for me, that without, you know, I’m so lucky. I know I’m very lucky, but I also, you know, give a lot of credit to the training I had as well, that I’ve had amazing supervisors. My master supervisor, because I have a research masters. So my Masters is, was it three year masters? I had to, like, you know, put together a proposal, defend my proposal. I wrote up, you know, collected data, analyzed. They wrote up 150 pages of thesis and defended it. So I through that time, I also had professional like courses as well in our program that taught us things to be looking about in academia. And I learned that, you know, the super your supervisor has such a huge impact on your well being that you should be thinking so much about that, like, really, really in depth wise. So for me, my my master supervisor, she was incredibly supportive. For me, I lost two family members within three months, and she created such a like, like, a hedge of protection around me, and my topic as well, was in end of life care. So it was, like, incredibly, incredibly difficult to be in that environment and suffer such loss and have to do research on, you know, death and dying. So without her support, without someone who is so, like, inherently compassionate, like she was counterculture to what was normal in academia. I remember the first time I met her. I was just going to introduce myself and tell her about my research, and she was running late, and she begged me. She was so apologetic. And then she was like, she hugged me, and I was like, Oh, am I in the wrong place? What’s going on? But I was not used to such, you know, compassion, really, and such, you know, connection. It was so strange for me, because in academia, it’s like, it feels like this, really, like, you know, highly cold and professional, like, you know, let’s keep a certain working distance. So she was counter culture to all of that. But, you know, she academics in that department. As well they, a lot of them, were right, very like, aware of things, and really tried to connect with you. My current PhD supervisors are, like, amazing. My primary supervisor is really, really like, checking in, asking me about well, being questions. Also, there’s a level of validation that they both gave me that I think, like, I wouldn’t have the confidence I have now. Like, I’m learning, still, I’m growing as a researcher, as a doctoral student, but I have a level of confidence. Like, for example, my major supervisor currently will, like, really, like, affirm the things. Like, you’re like, I can see that you have this experience is showing really, like, you know, going to that. So coming back to that analogy I gave of, like, you know, the tennis ball and football thing, like he’s my coach, like my supervisor is my coach, so he’s recognizing what I’m doing well and helping me, like, build on that. So I think, like, the things that you’re doing in your application stage will actually feed into your entire doctoral experience. So I, when I was applying for my PhD, I would, I did not compromise on that, like I was constantly scanning and looking for indications that my current PhD supervisor was not going to be like, you know, a wrong decision. I took that so seriously that until the first day, I was like, I am not compromising. Yes, I’m fully funded. Yes, I have a scholarship. Yes, I don’t have to worry about anything, but I don’t want to be two years in and be thinking, Oh, my days, I wish I had gone. I had not accepted this PhD, like it would have been better for me to not be in a PhD than be in this. So I was constantly aware of that, and I did lots of things while applying. I asked first contact for all, like two other students. I spoke to one student who, like, when I asked, really, like, you know, very specific questions. And one of the students disclosed to me that life challenge that they had gone through, and how the supervisor, like, like, I’m not just saying like, just giving encouraging words, but like, tangibly helped. I was flawed. Like it was like, like, Okay, if this supervisor can do this for this student at one of the most challenging periods of their lives, then like, it was not a hesitation for me that he was going to be my supervisor. I was like, Okay, this shows that inherently, what kind of a human being I’m working with. So yeah, for me, I think that application process is about you, like the me, the internal work, the personal statements, the research proposal, all the things they’re bringing application. But it’s also the others as well. Within that the supervisor talking to the students, getting a sense of feedback from other people. So ultimately, you can’t this is a life changing decision, and if it’s a life changing decision as we know it to be, then it should be treated with the same level of gravitas as you would any other life changing decision, because this PhD is even more impactful than your masters and your Bachelor’s was, because it’s going to be the jumping off point for the rest of your career. So, yeah, wow. I
Emma
love it. I love this. First of all, I just want to say again, I’m so sorry to hear of the of the challenges that you face during your masters. But I love this idea that you have, this are you? Do you take the supervisor to be your lawful That’s brilliant. I mean commitment ceremonies, commitment ceremonies could be a thing, right? And, as you say, taking that really seriously, because you, you, you are stepping into a deep and involved, well, depending on, as we say, sometimes not so involved. And that can be a problem in itself, but this is a very meaningful relationship that you are, you’re stepping into, yeah, two. Cynthia, I’m aware of time this is all golden. So much good stuff in there. I just wonder, as we finish, if there are any top tips that you would like to share for people who are thinking about applying for a PhD,
Cynthia
yeah. Oh, my dear. Lots of tips I’d love to give, but I think just echoing some of what I said, is the you factor. So think in terms of me myself, like, what is my unfair advantage? And how can I highlight that if you are trying to look up other people and see how you can stand out from other people, you lose focus of you and what makes you special. So I think, like really, kind of doing the internal work, sit down and just reflect on why you’re making decision, and what are the things that you’ve gone through so far that’s brought you to this decision, and in the middle of that, you’ll find that you’ve got a unique story, you’ve got an unfair advantage, right? You’ve got something that other people don’t have, like maybe the country you grew up, maybe the family you grew up, maybe the fact that you had to, you know, overcome a specific type of challenge that other people haven’t like. Your story is so unique. Your background is so unique. Don’t try to be like anyone else, don’t try to compare yourself to anyone else. Just try to stand out you and let other all the other work that you’ve done around that, like getting feedback from other people, they will help you understand how you stand out from the crowd. Your job is to highlight your unfair advantage.
Emma
Yes, you are. This is a thing. You’ve been called to this for a reason, and you bring special skills and experience to it. Love it. I love it. I love it. Cynthia, thank you so much. As I say, we will have all your details on the show notes. I wish you all the very best. May you recruit many people, and I hope things go really well for you going forwards. Thank you so much. Thank
Cynthia
you so much for having me really appreciate it, and
Emma
thank you all for listening.