Some notes on the transcription…
I wanted to provide a transcript of The PhD Life Raft podcast episodes to make the material more accessible.
I have used an automated transcription service to produce this document. These, as we all know, are not 100% accurate. Please excuse the odd typos and grammatical mis-translations. I hope that you will find the documentation of this conversation useful.
You can find the full interview here: https://thephdliferaft.libsyn.com/
Emma
Hello, Charlotte,
c.haineslyon
hello.
Emma
Thank you so much for being here and for having an amazing microphone. Because this is like, so clear. I
c.haineslyon
was like, um,
Emma
so thank you so much because this one is going to be a good one. It’s a topic that comes up a lot in terms of that kind of, that upgrade moment. And so we’re going to, we’re going to get into that in a minute. Um, but before we do, I’m going to ask, as I do for everybody, for you, to tell us a little bit about your PhD journey.
c.haineslyon
Okay, well, thanks Emma for inviting me onto this. Um, so I started my PhD when I was 40, and my youngest child was five, and I decided before then, I always wanted to do a PhD, but I could never commit doing something part time for five to seven years, because that took a long time, but actually only took three minutes for her to get to five. So I thought, oh, so I did, yeah, I spent seven years doing it with two young children, as they will tell you, it was over half their life that I spent doing it took me seven years, and it was in education. So I was looking at democratic parent engagement in schools. It was action research, and it was really tough, but I also loved it. And I think the thing for me was that I had been quite a competent professional for many years, or 20 odd years, and then started this PhD and felt really incompetent, which was a huge shock. So that sort of really shook my identity. And I’d also been a professional writer, so I’d been paid to write for various people, and then to discover that I couldn’t write academically was again, a massive shock. So that sort of really impacted my confidence. I think that was sort of it that sort of colored the first years of,
Emma
shall we say, yeah, yeah. And I think this is such a common experience. Sadly, people feel infantilized. They feel de skilled it. You know, this is deeply problematic. And rather than being offered as a kind of, you know, wow, this is an opportunity to learn and develop. It’s kind of like, it feels like falling apart. And I do think we need to attend to that, or at least warn people, at least more people, because they think, they people think, Oh, this is just me, and it isn’t. This happens to most people. I would say
c.haineslyon
that’s what I’ve discovered since, yes,
Emma
just me, no, and I think it’s, yeah, well, I mean, that is a whole another podcast episode, and maybe I’ll get you back on that. But linking then to this upgrade moment, it gets called different things, but it’s the same, okay, it’s a kind of so it’s this moment where you’ve started, you’ve started. You started the PhD research. You’ve you’ve had a year or so. Depends. Again, different institutions have different amount of time. And then you come to this first moment of kind of presentation of what you’ve been doing, sometimes to a big panel, sometimes to a couple of people with a report of what you’ve been doing, and I know that you have a story to tell about your experience. So tell us. Tell us that. Yeah,
c.haineslyon
well, if you don’t mind, I’m going to talk about my first annual review before getting to the upgrades, because they were quite different, and it sort of impacted the second one, if that makes sense, yes. So in our institution, you have, if if you’re part time, like I was, you’d have a Progress Review, sort of a year in, and then you have your transfer two years in, or six months
c.haineslyon
if you’re full time. So I had my annual review, and it started off by going, so why have you chosen this way of doing it? And it felt like I was being really undermined. Because if I’d been asked that in my previous job, like, Well, why have you done this? I was like, well, we’ve discussed this and we’ve agreed it what, and you know why? Because I’ve written 10,000 words on it. It felt really odd to me that they were asking and the supervisors were asking. It was the way it was sort of done, and I was really thrown and we had it was fine. We had quite a long, robust discussion about it, but by the end, I felt that I’d really struggled and that they didn’t like what I was doing, and I’m saying this, I don’t think that’s what they said. That’s how I felt. And I didn’t know if I passed it. I thought that maybe I was on the verge of being thrown out again. Not me to believe that, but that’s how I felt. And I cried for about three days at home, and I remember sitting in the bath just crying, my husband just bringing me glasses of what I don’t know what else to do. And I was like, Well, I’m just going to stay and just spike them all then, you know? And it was, it was really, really hard. I then went to my upgrade really nervous, because I just felt so awful in that first experience. And actually it was a really different experience, really helpful. And we reviewed stuff, and we looked at it, but what they said at the end, and it sort of lived with me forever, and it’s made me think about, how do you think they went through the list of things they were looking for, and they said, right, so you’ve been able to show that you can argue for your ideas and defend your thoughts. And I was like, Oh, is that why they’re asking the question? Not then, not because they think that I’ve got something wrong, but actually they’re testing my ability to argue. And of course, in a professional workplace, you don’t really get tested in your ability to argue. What they’re interested in is, have you done your job? Yes, and that was a real shift in the way I kind of understood the role of those events, but it was communicated sort of at the end rather than at the beginning. And I just so for me, it’s like that needs to be if that is a thing that needs to be communicated, that’s one of the roles of the events, I think, and that that that is such a fundamental thing to me, maybe it isn’t for other people, but it really sort of changed the way I understood everything. Oh, this
Emma
is brilliant. And we’re going to, we’ll, we’re going to get in in a minute, because in a minute, we’re going to, you know, solve, solve all the problems. We’re going to, we’re going to say wrong thing. But let’s just stick with the with the with the difficulty at the moment, if that’s okay in terms of the crying, because you won’t have been alone on that. And I know this. This is a very anxiety provoking experience for a lot of people, because, as you say, I didn’t know if I passed or not. Is this sense of it being an exam? Yeah, of course, a lot of PhD researchers are high achievers. They have flown through their exams. That’s why they’re where they are. And this sense of an exam very high stakes, and especially because by the time you get to this moment, you have invested a lot of time, energy, potentially even money as well, into this so it’s it is really deeply meaningful. Also, it’s probably the first time that you presented your ideas publicly, more publicly in a formal kind of setting. So these kind of tender notes that you have been writing, these, these kind of, these shoots of ideas that have been you’ve been nurturing now are exposed to the elements. And I think that what you talk about in terms of this, the annual review, and then the upgrade. And again, different institutions are going to call it different things. But I think what you’re saying here in terms of the way that it’s framed up, and understanding what you’re stepping into, yeah, is really, really important,
c.haineslyon
yeah. And I don’t think anybody had really prepared me for that. They were just like, well, we just reviewed the progress so, but it’s quite there’s intricacies to it, which I think I neglected, or it’s just assumed that you’ll know,
Emma
yes, yes, yes, yes. It’s academia. Is I mean, I think the way I try and understand it in terms of being generous spirited is a kind of, it’s a spirit of kind of generosity, of like, oh well, everybody will know what this is. We’re just doing this all together, kind of thing that’s, that’s the generous reading of it. Of course you will understand. Of course, you’re welcome and of course. But this is not how people experience it. Often. It’s like, it’s, you know, it’s like smoke and mirrors and come, you know, into the inner sanctum where you’re not what’s going on. People are kind of swooping in and out and making decisions about you. But I think this what you’re talking about in terms of clarity and understanding and and then there will be different different meetings. Are doing different sets of things. And so this sense of the of the Progress Review and the upgrades, and how far apart were they for you, and they were a year apart for me, a year apart. Okay, so I think that’s also we need to just mark that, that these, these, they’re not regular occurrences, which, again, ups the ante on it, yeah. But also means that you, don’t get a lot of practice at it. You’re kind of in, yes, so I suppose why we’re unpicking all of this is because what we, I know, what we wanted to do in this, in this episode, was just to say to people, this is a tricky moment. It’s okay to be to feel it a sticky moment. But there are things that we could start to do to make it better. And I know that you having had your awful experience of people not really explaining what’s going on, and then feeling like you’d failed, which clearly you hadn’t failed, you done really well. You’ve done really well. That’s the thing, right? And that’s the thing as well, isn’t it? Notices at the end, brilliant, well done. It’s just like, yeah, thanks very much. Bye. Well,
c.haineslyon
I think that was part of it. And then there was an added sort of kick in the teeth when I got the report, which was couple of months later, it says, like progress, and it says satisfactory. Well, I was in education, and at the time satisfactory was being changed. It requires improvement. And satisfactory is seen as a really, really bad word. A question was like, why is it so satisfactory? I thought this was like, the worst thing in the world. It’s like, no, no, that’s like, all you can get. It’s either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. They’re the only two options. I was like, what fresh hell is this?
Emma
Oh, my God. And two months later, this is it there for two months. And
c.haineslyon
I suspect they might have said I’d made satisfactory progress in the meeting. But because that word is so like, such a bad word in my head, I do not take it, you
Emma
know, and and so to note that this is, this is how, this is how the PhD is as well. It’s like a pass fail thing. So it’s not, it’s, there’s not it’s, it’s, you can’t really ace it in that way. If you see what I mean, I think
c.haineslyon
that’s one of the things that threw me, yes, for a lot of the PhD, was you don’t get marks. So, you know, you can’t gage how well you’re doing. So I permanently thought I was on the edge of being thrown out, you know, because you know, because you don’t get 70% or 60% or you just, there’s no sort of gage, it’s a really, really strange experience.
Emma
Yeah, yeah. So this is, this is not good, having people sitting around waiting for comments that they don’t really understand, having been through an experience that they didn’t really know what was going on. They were awful when actually they were brilliant. This is, this is not a good this is not a good situation. So can we have your thoughts on how, how this and indeed, what you do now is good practice to improve these experiences?
c.haineslyon
Yeah. People, sure. So I now supervise quite a lot of PhDs, but also professional doctorates. So I make it very clear from the start that they will be having an annual review, and what the role of the annual review is, and the kind of feelings they might have, quite often tell them about my experience, not trying to frighten them, but just go, you know, it is kind of normal to feel a bit rubbish, but hopefully we can make it better by understanding what you’re going into. Because I supervise people in education, I do explain that word satisfactory, because it’s still used, and they look at me going, Are you kidding me? Is that really the word they use, you know? So I’m glad that I always do explain that one, yeah. And so I try my own supervisors know what they’re going into. But also, when I run a review, as it were, a chair review, I do try and acknowledge what the role of that is. And it might be a bit of a strange feeling, and try and give them sort of some time to settle in and sort of say, you know, this isn’t a test. This is about time to explore what you’re doing, trying to look at your ability can can to actually defend your ideas. That’s part of it, because that’s what you have to do in the vibe it so looking at, sort of explaining what each bit is, so it’s not too strange. Then make sure by the end of it, they really know where they stand. So, you know, generally, which is fantastic job. Really excited to see what you’re doing. Looking forward to seeing this work. You know, developing. There have been a couple of times where we have had to say, well, actually, it’s not satisfactory progress, but this wide be clear what support is there for them and where we’re going. And then that’s only happened twice, and that’s horrible and but also recognizing that I’m not doing anybody any favors to kind of pretend everything’s fine. So it’s not about being nice all the time, is it? But it’s, I think, making it really clear to people where they stand, but what support they can have and why, and not really leaving the room until I know that they do understand that that makes sense.
Emma
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because, of course, the voices in our heads are always going to tell us that it’s been rubbish, and we are terrible, and we didn’t do it right. So actually having a bit of external feedback can be really useful. And this is great in terms of knowing where you stand and knowing what that meeting is around. And just again, to clarify that they’re going to be different kinds of formal meetings so that that progress meeting, yeah, where it’s kind of like, how are you doing? Where are you at? Ideally, as you say, ideally, that’s going to be helpful to you.
Emma
That’s going to go, yeah, no, I’m still on track. Brilliant. Somebody else who doesn’t know my work has chaired that meeting and gone well done. So I can hold on to that, and it’s an overview meeting, it’s a kind of management meeting. And then those kind of, those upgrade meetings, where you’re kind of, is this a viable project? Is this viable? And so it isn’t about it’s not an ex, like you say, it’s not an exam. It’s like, let’s help you shape this up so that it’s possible, because everybody’s, you know, usually super ambitious for the project, want to do 3 million things. And actually it’s like, it’s okay, just do those two. That’s fine. And, and it is very usual that you will get feedback and things will need to change. And that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It’s like, let us help you shape it up.
c.haineslyon
Yeah. And I think it’s help you shape up. But, and it’s also not just about the work. It’s looking at, how do you manage all that? So that’s some of the time we take is, like, how we manage this? Yeah, practically. And sort of talking in terms of, this is a useful meeting. This is useful in terms of, it might be your only chance to really discuss it in in this way before your viva, even though that might be five years down the line. But also, yes, how can we shape this up? And you know, it’s useful to have external people to the project, because the supervisors, every, everybody’s so in it, and I know this is a supervisor, it’s so useful having somebody from outside the team to take that critical view. Yes, quite often, you know, spotting really good things that maybe have just been taken for granted. So I think it can be a really positive experience. Yeah,
Emma
exactly. I kind of do the hard sell on this as a positive experience. People will be like, I don’t believe you, but, but I think that sense of actually, if you can come to that meeting, as you say, knowing what it’s about, understanding that it’s not you being examined in that way, this is about a project management meeting. Is this a viable project? And how do we make if it isn’t, how do we make it? So that’s
c.haineslyon
it. So it’s not this sort of, I can’t think of any sort of massive fails or anything, and say, occasion, it’s like, you might need to just do X, Y and Z before we can kind of go through the full upgrade. But exactly, seeing it that that’s okay, because at the end of the day, it might add another three months on. Well, you know, frankly, with a PhD. So what? It’s a not quite yet, and I think we have to get over this mentality. And I’m saying that as somebody who would be devastated and, you know, and had to extend my PhD three months at the end, but actually, it doesn’t matter, you know, and I was really pleased I did in the end, but all those things at the time just seemed so big, don’t they? And I think it’s also about us in the room recognizing how big that all feels when we’re giving that feedback. Yeah,
Emma
it is a big moment, but if they were going to chuck you out, they wouldn’t be spending time on a boosting refuge. So if you’ve been invited to one of these meetings, it’s a good sign, right? It’s good you’re on track. So I think first of all, that sense of like this isn’t going to be chucking you out moment, that isn’t that you if you were in trouble, you would know that before, yes, well, we would very, very, very much hope so. So this is about then shaping up. Lots of people get feedback on that. That doesn’t mean it was wrong. It just means, let’s take it in a particular direction. And as you, as you already said this, it’s this sense of, it’s one of these weird academic rituals, all this kind of baggage within it, in terms of what, what is going on in there. It’s a kind of as an entry into that way of way of being, which we do need to be a lot more transparent about, as you say, testing argumentation, that you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, and
c.haineslyon
I think that’s what it isn’t. That’s not done in the real world, professional world, but it doesn’t feel we’re very real sometimes, is it? And it’s a different type of conversation, I think, to what you might have at a review, yeah, in the sort of outside, sort of industrial workplace, for example, yeah. And I think it’s, it’s somehow explaining that to people and getting across that that’s okay. And I think what you were saying about actually, you wouldn’t be invited to this review if you were failing, because actually, we should have had that conversation before. I think that’s really important. And I do try and say that you always say, Have you engaged with me as your supervisor? Yes, you have. Have you done all the work? Yes, you have. So you probably don’t have that much to worry about. You know, if you’d gone AWOL, then, you know, I probably wouldn’t even be having this conversation with you. So, yeah, yeah.
Emma
And it’s so it’s that sense of coming to this meeting thinking, What can I get out of this meeting? Yeah, rather than subjecting yourself to a torturous experience, and say it’s not, it’s probably not going to be a pleasant experience, but hopefully it’ll be a really useful and productive experience, in terms of you getting some really useful thoughts, some guidance, and I say ideally, you do feel better afterwards. But, yeah, we can’t promise you that,
c.haineslyon
yeah, and I think, you know, some of that is just been really sensible. And try trying, and I know it’s not easy, because we’ve all got busy lives, but building in a bit of time afterwards that you just to recover, because it’s really intense experience. Ever it’s really intense, absolutely.
Emma
So there will be, yeah, there will be a hangover. Absolutely, what you would, what you will not do is go, right? I’m going to come out of that meeting, then I’m going to get on with it. No no, no, no, something nice afterwards. And also probably, like you say, a bit of a pause in terms of, okay, let me just let all of that settle, and maybe some, just some time for reflection and journaling the sense of, okay, what? What went on there? What? So, yeah, I think that’s really, really
c.haineslyon
good. Maybe go out for coffee with a friend who’s been through it all, that you can just have a bit of a bitch and moan about it. And it’s not that you’re bitching about the terrible people in there, but I think it’s quite important just to let just to let that out. And you know, I always say to people I supervise, please go and bitch about me. That’s absolutely fine. You need to let that that you know, you need to let the steam off. It’s I think that’s really important.
Emma
Yeah, no, I used to say that at the beginning with people in terms of, like, you will hate me, yeah, at some point in this process, you will hate me. You will hate your supervisor. That’s totally normal. It’s a kind of, it’s a transference thing the sky,
c.haineslyon
yeah, and that’s okay. And I think we as supervisors also need to be told that that’s okay. You know, I’m certainly not precious about that. So I think it’s building in those times for just sort of venting. I think venting is really, really important, and you don’t have to sort of carry this. And I think it’s really if you can’t do it physically. There’s some amazing Facebook groups on there that you can kind of do that. I know I was in one for sort of parents doing PhDs, and that just saved my PhD, frankly, because I could go, you’ll never believe what happened here. And then we say, well, that’s totally normal, yeah, all right,
Emma
then, okay, yeah, I do think having that being able to let off steam, because there will be a lot of steam, yeah, I’m aware of time. This always goes so quickly, right? So there’s so much in there, and thank you so much for being so honest about all of that that’s really helpful. And I
c.haineslyon
I think that as supervisors, we need to think and ask the PGL, what do they want to get out of that meeting? And it just changes it a little bit, rather than, this is just a test, you know, but what do you actually want to get out of it? And just puts a little bit of agency back into the hands of the PGR.
Emma
So I love that this is top tip for supervisors, but I think that’s brilliant in terms of, yeah, what? What do? What does the PhD researcher want to get out of this really, really important Charlotte, thank you so much. Thank you for your time here today, and thank you also for all that you’re doing for the people that you’re working with. It’s been well, thank you. It’s
c.haineslyon
been an absolute pleasure, and it’s just great that people are having these conversations. I
Emma
think, yeah, yes, yes. More, more, more transparency and more,
c.haineslyon
yes. Let’s remove that curtain. You know that everything’s hidden behind. I think,
Emma
definitely, definitely. Oh, thank you so much, and Thank you all For Listening.