Some notes on the transcription…
I wanted to provide a transcript of The PhD Life Raft podcast episodes to make the material more
accessible.
I have used an automated transcription service to produce this document. These, as we all know, are
not 100% accurate. Please excuse the odd typos and grammatical mis-translations. I hope that you will
find the documentation of this conversation useful.
You can find the full interview here: https://thephdliferaft.libsyn.com/
Emma
Hello, Cilla,
hi, hi, Emma,
Emma
so lovely to have you here. And this is going to be a really interesting one. I think in terms of what we
want to think about is research leadership and what that means. So we’re going to get into that in a
minute. But first of all, I’m going to ask you to tell us a little about your journey. Maybe tell us what
you’re doing now and then tell us about your journey through your PhD to where you’ve got now,
okay, sure, so,
well, I’m, I
Speaker 1
work at Kingston University in London, and I’m the academic head, or some universities call it the Dean
of the Graduate Research School. So I kind of have the ultimate responsibility for the research students
at the university. They’re about 600 across all the different disciplines, and I do the kind of core training
delivery and set the strategic direction and that kind of thing. And then I’m also head of research and
development for the academics at the university. And I think I came through that route. I was initially a
clinician. I worked in the NHS, and then I volunteered in India. Really enjoyed teaching in a in a hospital
there, teaching my profession, which is occupational therapy. And so I signed up for the first masters in
my profession and got myself into academia and started teaching occupational therapy students at
Brunel University. Research funding, then having different ideas for projects, and that led me into
applying for my PhD. So in terms of my PhD, the actual topic was, how do occupational therapists
prioritize referrals to community mental health teams? So how do we learn from people who feel they’re
2
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
making a good contribution to the job. How do we learn so that we can teach other people to to do to do
better? Because I think all research is always about trying to advance things. Yeah, so actually, my
profession wasn’t really hardly anyone with a PhD so and it was really more focused around cognitive
psychology as a methodology. So I went to the psychology department and found a lovely professor,
Ken gilhooley, who kindly took me on for my PhD. I think he was very brave, because I was pregnant
with my third child.
Speaker 1
Studied psychology formally, although you do learn quite a lot of psychology as an occupational
therapist, and that he still took me on, and it all worked out all right in the end, as they say. And I
Emma
think it’s so interesting to think about these stories and where people how the PhD is a kind of is a is a
kind of crystallization point for things that may have come before, and then takes you maybe in new
directions that you go on to after. And I love that the theme of bravery has already come up, because
we were doing a bit of a chat before we started, and we’re talking about being brave as you’re
developing your academic career. So it’s already out there on the table. So so let’s get into this in terms
of the topic that you suggested was this, this developing research leadership? Can you tell us a bit
why? I
Emma
and what you’re doing around this at the moment? Yes,
Speaker 1
so basically, when I kind of worked my way up in academia, I got to head of clinical sciences at Brunel
across looking after about eight professions, and I was by then, I’d had maybe about 12 research
grants and things. And you know, with all the often in life you you get the responsibility without the
training. So luckily, Brunel was quite forward thinking, and they invited me to go on this leadership
course at Windsor Castle, called the Windsor leadership scheme. I don’t know if anyone saw the crown.
But at one point, I think Prince Philip was, you know, pretty out of sorts, and couldn’t cope. And off he
went to wintercastle and sat with some priests, and they formed a small group, and they talk regularly.
And that was the beginnings of the Windsor leadership course. And originally, I think it was for people
from different just
Speaker 1
academics gone it too and and so they basically took us through security, and we were inside the castle
for a week. It was fantastic, and it was with people from all kinds of different backgrounds in my like,
they called it a syndicate group, which is, like an action learning set type group. I had, like, the head of
the Commandos, a head teacher from the school. Yeah, really, really good. So I learned to a huge
amount. And I, I am in my position when I moved to St George’s as Associate Dean research there. I I
talked to my colleagues. There were lots of really talented professors and lots of researchers working
with them, and clinicians in the hospital doing research. So I said, How about we get together for an
away day and we try and design a Leadership Academy which we could run together, you know,
everyone could chip in on speaking and and that, and that’s how it initially formed. So it covid Hit just as
3
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
we started it. So I was like, oh, you know, because every lots of lots of people had to go back into
clinical practice. I was like, well, this, this is going to grind to a halt. We’ll just have to wait. But people
were dead keen. And basically, we managed to push it, put it online, and we kept going all the way
through covid. We ran it for six months every week, and at the end, I was also linked in a joint faculty to
Kingston University. Kingston invited me to run it for their universities. So it was for doctoral students
and academics, and I had a collaboration with the National Institute of Health Research, and I was
invited to run it for them. So that’s now become a national leadership academy for any health and social
care researchers. So so that’s how I originally got really into this field of leadership and and I’m still
enjoying delivering that sort of, that whole kind of academy model, but, but it’s absolutely dependent on
to get the breadth of ideas. Yeah,
Emma
so I love this, and this may well be news to people in terms of that there, there are training courses that
are particularly around developing you and developing leadership skills for you within the kind of
academic context. So yeah, you’ve got loads of experience here, and this is why you’re a brilliant
person to say, What? What? What is this? Then, what sort of leadership skills are we talking about, and
how might you develop them? If you if you don’t have access to this program, then what should you be
looking out for
Speaker 1
sure? So I think, I mean, I focus the academies I’m running currently on research leadership, because
I’m responsible for researcher development. But I think leadership skills are so transferable, really, to
any areas and building working with teams and all that kind of thing. But maybe the first thing is
Speaker 1
research degrees at the moment, or supporting people doing research degrees. And as as you well
know, you always want to focus on something that matters to you, that fits with your values, that you’re
passionate about, about. And I’d say it’s just the same with your leadership. Kind of Persona is you
want to be authentic. You’ve got to be the type of person which is naturally, you obviously, you know,
all of us have strengths and needs and whatever. So obviously you’re going to focus ideally on the
areas where you can have the strengths fitting with the kind of leadership persona which you have and
but I think if you try to be something where you’re not authentic, it doesn’t do you any good. It, you
know, it doesn’t sit with your values. It doesn’t it’s not good for your health and well being, you know. So
I think believe in, believe in what you’re what you’re passionate about, and what matters to you, and
stick to your guns on that. But I
Speaker 1
working with other people and building collaborations and networking is super important. It gets more
and more important as you go on through your research, you know different activities and career so so
you have to also develop really, really good skills at being collaborative and and so I’d say, first of all,
how could someone find you? What kind of presence Do you have out there that people are aware of
you? So some people might have linked to use LinkedIn, they might follow people or and comment, or
4
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
they might put different posts up. They might have podcasts, all kinds of different opportunities. I mean,
lots of people are more expert than me on this, but just think about, how are you portraying yourself?
Make sure you’re authentic to your true persona. And just think, how, how will I attract people to work
with me? And then, if you don’t really have an online presence in order to work with you. So So I think
being known for something that’s also key. So if you’re as you’re gradually working out what you’re
interested in, you want to kind of build knowledge and expertise. And for those of you you know, when
you get to your viva, your PhD supervisors will probably hope that you’ll know more about the specific
topic you’ve studied more than they do, because, you know, you’ve spent years on this topic. So so you
want to be known for something, something you really enjoy and are passionate about, which fit with
your values, and make sure you’re kind of out there in the world, so that people can find you you’re kind
of engaging with, with the discussions on your topics and things like that. I think another factor which
kind of links in is a bit about, I think one tricky thing, when you’re a PhD student, I’ve supervised quite a
few, and it’s always hard, isn’t it, because your supervisors, you’re probably
Speaker 1
and you might ask for other people for advice along the way, they’re always going to have different
points of view. And that is just the way it is. Everybody’s perceptions of issues or concepts or theories
can vary, because we’re all human, and everybody’s had different life experience, different have
different world views. So it’s bound to be the case that people have different perspectives and share
that those with you in different ways. So I think as as you build your research capabilities, just be really
aware that it’s absolutely fine for people to have different points of view. So when you’re discussing
ideas, although you’re going to be passionate about your own ideas, you have to be super respectful of
everyone else’s ideas. So I mean, of course, if it goes into the domains where you know, it’s like, illegal
or something like that. It’s not really going to be something you can support, and you’d want
Speaker 1
to, it’s healthy to have those discussions and those debates, and just to, like, feel okay with that, that
you can put forward your points of view. You can listen to other people’s points of view. You can
recognize and understand that people will have different perspectives. And, above all, try not to fall out
with people, because the world is actually quite a small place, and you never know when you’re going
to come up against those people in the future. If they’re in your field, you might find they’re on an
interview panel for a job you’re going for. They might be part of a team putting in a bid together. They
might be receiving a reference for you. And if they’re kind of like, oh gosh, that’s that person who was
so difficult to work with because they never listened to us, or they kind of always push their own point of
view as the only one, then it’s going to be quite hard, I think, to make your way in terms of collaboration
so. So I think that’s other bit more savvy around, being respectful of everyone’s views, listening,
debating, discussing, without it getting personal, just trying to be really super professional about that
and recognize that’s all healthy. So
Emma
I think, yeah, this sense of of what, what I’m getting from this is this, this research leadership, because
it sounds like it’s kind of this, this professional development thing, but actually it’s from day one, isn’t it?
In terms of just being yourself and believing in your research, like you say, being authentic, you are
leading your research. That’s what you’re doing from day one. And it may be a bit of a navigation to find
5
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
out which direction you want to go in your research and how that is, and there’s a negotiation with your
supervisors as well to be had, but that sense of you leading and also having that sense of, as you say,
of ownership and yet being open
Emma
a sense of of there may be times where you need to defend that work. There may be times where you
are disagreeing, but the leadership is about you being able to attend to what’s important to you while
also attending to what’s important to other people, if I’m hearing you right? Yeah,
Speaker 1
I think it’s in order to build in terms of collaborations people to know you for your work. I think it’s about
building those you know, respectful relationships with your community and you know, you are on a
journey. A PhD is all about developing your research skills, isn’t it, and knowledge. And even if the
project doesn’t quite work out as you expected, you’re not just doing a project. You’re doing a PhD, and
that’s your research training. So when you get to your viva. You know, if the PhD itself didn’t work out,
but you can still substantive research which was original and you you led it, or you led the section of the
part you were you know on you can still get to your Viva and discuss it doctoral level and still be
recognized as having a doctoral level of understanding of your subject area. So,
Emma
um,
Speaker 1
yeah, I think, I think, um, the Yeah, I mean, it’s useful as well, maybe just to briefly touch on the Viva,
because the word defend your thesis is interesting, isn’t it? And and actually, those examiners who
offer to step up to give the time to discuss all your research with you, they’re never doing it for the
money they only get, you know, 100 or 200 quid, but for the amount of time they’ll have put in. They’re
really doing it because they they’re very interested in your topic. That’s why they’ve agreed to take on
the role of examiner. They
Speaker 1
future researchers for their field, because all of people doing research now at doctoral level are, are our
future research leaders, you know? And so when they, when you come to your viva, think of it as these,
these individuals who’ve given quite a lot of their time to read your thesis from cover to cover and really
think deeply about it, probably they’ll have done it, you know, on their weekends and things like that,
getting ready. They might have traveled to your university for the Viva, and look forward to a really
interesting conversation with people who have an interest in your field. And if they kind of say some
suggestions of how you could do your work or how you could do it differently, if you think actually you
know what, they’ve got a really good point there, then do say, well, actually, thank you so much for
raising
Speaker 1
that is very relevant, and I would be certainly interested. You know, in my future research, in
investigating that more, and perhaps, you know, building some collaborations around that way of
6
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
working. And just make sure they feel heard. Make sure that when they give you some suggestions, it’s
not like you have to say, no, no, I wouldn’t do that because I’ve done this because of X, Y and Z. You
know, you don’t have to always be defending everything to the last nth degree. But on the other hand, if
they’re saying something like, Well, why did you choose that approach or something? If you you want to
give your rationale, because you want to demonstrate that you’ve been thoughtful and you’ve carefully
developed your ideas, you know, not just pick them out of thin air. So you certainly would explain the
reasons why you chose that approach was X, Y and Z, and it had the benefits of this and that, and you
might mention about some other
Speaker 1
be a little bit careful with that, because sometimes that’s, you know, digging a hole for yourself. It’s
sometimes safer to stick with why you chose to do something, because of the because of the benefits
of that, because no research is perfect, they’re not going to expect your research to be perfect. There’s
always pros and cons to everything. So you’ve made your best judgment at the time, and you can
always reflect back on that, but just that, that issue about valuing what your examiners talk to you about
and making sure they feel heard, you definitely don’t have to defend every single thing, if that makes
sense, makes absolute
Emma
sense, and I think that this sense of research leadership doesn’t mean that the research has you know,
your leadership is not assessed on how perfect the research is. Your leadership might be seen in terms
of how you navigated the difficult moments, or how you occasionally. Did you say the questions that
you’re asked, how you respond to that, and how you sit in your own wisdom, what you know about this
material, and how you can be open to other perspectives on
Speaker 1
it. That’s right, yeah, I think that shows maturity in your understanding of research, that there’s all these
different approaches and there’s yeah, as you say, no, no. Research is is perfect, you know, you and
often you’re trying things to for the first time. That’s where the originality comes in, if you’re doing a PhD
level research project. So yeah, and I think it is hard doing a PhD, because it’s really the last time that
you probably have to very independently do the project, leading it from the front yourself. Yes, in the
future, you can do everything collaboratively, if you want to, and actually to get funding awards
nowadays for research grants, really collaborations or interdisciplinary working, they’re very valued.
We, different funders have different expectations of what they’re prepared to put their money into. So if
you’re if you’ve got something a bit of outside the box and a bit more risky, often the charities or
Welcome Trust, those types of ones are great because they they like really unusual research, and they
like kind of really creative, you know, innovative topics and things. But because it’s charitable funding,
they’re, they, of course, they’re accountable, but, but it’s not taxpayers money and where, they have to
stay a little bit, sometimes a little bit more mainstream on on the agreed challenges which they will fund,
etc. So so different funders just have different angles on how they can spend their money.
Emma
Yeah, so I think this is, this is it’s taken us into the into this another sort of subject, really, but this
7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Emma
may, may take you to a place where you are heading up grant proposals and you are looking to
develop projects. I am aware that we kind of almost out of time, but I wonder if we can ask you, in a in,
you know, in a couple of minutes, to give us, give us some ideas about that, if people are looking
towards that in terms of what, yes, what that experience might Yeah,
Speaker 1
so Well, one thing I’d say is there’s been a bit of a shift in The research funding Arena in that it was the
big, the biggest thing they looked at when they were checking out whether you were suitable to be
leading a research grant or something, is they primarily look at your track record for funding and other
grant management you know, to deliver the outputs on time, to to to budget, etc. But there’s been a bit
of a shift, because it’s been recognized that to be a good research leader and a good researcher really
Speaker 1
patients and help other people. Sometimes they phrase it, you know, help other people up the ladder,
or whatever the phrase is, but, and I think so. Ukri, which fund all the big research councils, they they
now have a new type of CV called a narrative CV, and one of the four sections in the narrative CV is
what you’ve done to contribute towards helping others develop and what you know, how you’ve gone
about that in your in your experience, or in your in your career to date. So, and that gets a lot of points
now, because they want, they want to fund people who are going to involve other people and help them
along the way and create the future, future capability and capacity for research. So So I think
developing your ability to nurture others research is something really important to think about. And I’m
sure lots of people listening already do that kind of thing.
Speaker 1
Mentor or a coach. You might have some kind of schemes within your university which will help you
train as a mentor or a coach. Like there might be a peer one for your grad school, there might be like
one for people from diverse backgrounds, which you can take part in. But I think learning how to
support others and to give back is a is a really important skill to develop in yourself if you would like to
be on that kind of journey as a Research Leader. And definitely now for the you know, for future funding
awards, they look at that as part of the criteria to give them research funding awards to research
leaders, so that that’s one one point, I think the other thing is just you do have one another aspect of
being a good research leader is you have to have some credibility and that that partly comes through
gaining experience and building up your knowledge on research. So sometimes you might be part of
other people’s teams or just having a small award which is local to your discipline or your university.
That’s where people start to start, and then gradually you build up. So you can’t suddenly jump to to
running a massive grant on your own. Sometimes they have an experienced person with you as a co
applicant, and they are specifically there as a mentor so you can, you can take on bigger projects, but
just build step by step to get your credibility. And then you do need to spend a bit of time in your field,
looking on, probably online or going to lectures and things, just learning about, what are the kinds of
topics that get funded in your field, and what are the current you know, who are the people who
currently get funded? Can you contact them? Can you ask to join, as you know, a kind of honorary
member of their research group so you can go along to some of their events. You know, who?
8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Sometimes, when I interview people, I ask, if you had to pick the place that’s best at doing research in
your field, where would it be? Could we could
Speaker 1
help us implement here, you know. So just you do have to invest a bit of time in building your expertise
on your own or your own topic areas. But I’m sure people are in their in their PhDs.
Emma
That’s the thing is, stuff that you will be doing already, but maybe just a bit more mindfully. And I think
the good news here from what you said today, in terms of be a good research leader, needs to be
authentic. So be yourself and be a nice person, help other people, and just be aware of what’s going on
in in the field. Because I think that sense of drawing on the stuff that’s already happening, that it isn’t,
doesn’t necessarily need to be a whole nother level of stress for you, but the sense of that there are,
there are processes that are going on that you might just be more reflective on. That will mean that you
can be strategic as you go forward, because strategy is important, right? Yeah,
Speaker 1
get more strategically savvy and, and, I mean, as we talked earlier, I was thinking perhaps we should
open up the Leadership Academy when we run at Kingston for other people, because, actually, there’s
no problem nowadays with online it’s quite easy to scale these things up, isn’t it? But yeah, I sometimes
do talks about how to be strategically savvy. We have other speakers on building your ability to be
collaborative, be authentic, develop your nurturing capabilities, and develop your track record and
things but, but alongside developing and nurturing abilities, it’s not the be all and end all anymore. So
yeah,
Emma
gorgeous, gorgeousness, right? Um, I am super aware of time now. Um, so that would that sounded
like a list of top tips, because I do ask for a top tip at the end. I wonder if you have a favorite top tip that
you would like to leave us with.
Sure. So I think
Speaker 1
aids people who do research, and obviously doctoral students or research students are definitely going
to be fairly consumed with research at this point in their life, but it’s also to our research community is,
you know, researchers are unusual because you are trying to go into an area which other people
haven’t done before, because you’re you’re stepping outside your comfort zone, both in terms of the
topic you’re trying to study and research, but also in terms of your capability, because you’re by doing a
doctorate, you’re taking yourself to another level of ability to be a researcher. So and you don’t when
you start out, you don’t know if you’ve got that capability or not. You’re hoping you have and you’re
hoping the topic will work out, but you’re on a journey, and if it doesn’t work out it’s not the end of the
world. But sometimes I say it’s slightly like an analogy I think of, you know, in the football game, and
you get, kind of get a draw at the end, and they have extra time, and it’s,
9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Speaker 1
and we all, you know, especially in England, we’re always like, Oh, no, we’re not very good at penalties.
But basically, you know, they those people who have to step up and take the penalties. I think
researchers are a little bit like penalty takers, because they have to be super brave. They have to, they
don’t know if it’s going to work out and they’re going to score a goal. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s definitely
risky. Research is definitely risky. But if you don’t have a go, who’s you know what’s going to happen.
No one has a chance. No one has ability to be successful, and you never know what might be the
outcome. So I think we all do research to try and make the world a best place. That’s the underlying
principle. And we want to know what works. We want to develop innovation. It’s so, so important to our
world and and so, you know, you are brave, and not everybody puts themselves in this position to go
outside their comfort zone. So, you know, you I really admire everybody who’s who’s brave enough to
do research, and as long as you enjoy the journey and and get out of it whatever you can, you know,
really, it is your, your passion that drives you to do this level of research at doctoral level. So, you know,
I just want to wish everyone well and say, you, you know, in times when it’s a bit tough, think Cilla told
me I’m a bit like that penalty taker, but you know, we need you. We really do need you, and I really
hope that you do score that goal. Amazing.
Emma
Be more sucker, is what we’re saying. Thank you so much, Cilla for all of that. I hope that, yeah, people
don’t overwhelm me with requests to join your leadership, but we will have details in the in the show
notes about where you can Get more information, and thank you all For Listening.